This topic came up in the I have "I have a question thread", but I felt it needed its own thread, because I think there are many of us who have an opinion on this one way or the other.
The original post was by Enchantment of Rose. She said:
Hey, I'm having problems making my chapters long. I've tried writing character thought bubbles, description, dialogue, but when I look at the word count in the end, my heart sinks as I see "937 words." How is it authors can make their chapters so long? To me, my chapter seem just as full yet gravity works against me!! Any suggestions on how I should deal with my dilemma?
LionQueen replied:
Well, The ones I've been posting currently have either already had a bunch of chapters written or near finished as with my LOTR fic. When posting them I also found the chapters shorter than I'd like. You figure the chapter of an actual book are often ten pages or more. So, I combined chapters. Most of them are compilations of at least two chapters that I revamped and merged into one. My largest chapter was actually about 4k words, but my average ot 2 - 3k. I write until I've gotten at least 7 pages worth, sometimes it comes out 9 or 10 pages worth. Then I go over it with spell/grammar check, reread it, load the doc and then pull it up and reread it again. If the chapter is five pages or less I typically don't post it. I keep writing. Sometimes this can take a couple of days longer than I'd like, but it's worth it. :) Where I'm stumbling at is I started writing this Lost one with the intentions of continuing the character through the series.(Unless she dies or something) But it already has 45 chapters. I supposed I could do the LOTR thing and cut off at some point and then start another story but picking up where I left off, but how to do that and it not look like I've moved chapters of the same story and tried to pass it off as a different story? Or just continue writing and have 15 billion chapters?
Amita4ever added:
EOR, don't knock yourself too hard. You have a special talent if you can write a short chapter that is "just as full" and still be short. I have the opposite problem. I can't seem to write a short story to save my life! Even if I have it outlined to be short, it still seems to end up long... I looked over your Albion story and I'll say I don't think you're really shorting your readers any with the short chapters. You have dialogue, description (you could add a little more, maybe, but not much), interaction, reaction... all centered around our getting to know the characters as well as propelling us through the story with a goal in mind -- the things that fill in a chapter. I'm thinking that instead of adding more to what you have, that if you compare your work to others you may find that they have more events chained together in one chapter, and that would - of course - make them longer. I tend to focus my chapters around an idea (a certain plot point that needs to happen/be revealed) and my chapter will include ALL the events that need to occur to get the story to that point. This means some chapters are short and others are longer, depending on how much has to happen. Certainly, I am no expert. I am pretty much an amateur myself so hopefully some others will have some comments to add, but I hope you will continue your story.
8/28/2007 . Edited by Rhea Silverkeys, 9/5/2007 #1 ReportOh, you just had to do this while I was typing, didn't you ;-)
Cut from the other thread:
EOR wrote:
Hey, I'm having problems making my chapters long. I've tried writing character thought bubbles, description, dialogue, but when I look at the word count in the end, my heart sinks as I see "937 words."
Looking at your Albion fic, it's mostly driven by dialogue, with the occasional description thrown-in. This (at least to me) makes for an empty piece of writing.
Imagine each paragraph on its own on an otherwise empty sheet of paper. That's an awful lot of white space. But the white space can be filled in by sketching where the scene takes place, by what causes the scene to take place, by what motivates the characters, by... and so on.
Reading the first chapter, all I can see are the two characters. There's nothing surrounding them but emptiness. If you write with notepad or wordpad or something similar, make your editor fill the whole screen, put one paragraph in the middle on its own, then try to fill in the details. Then repeat for each paragraph. And choose a small font. A good starting point would be to think what you are trying to achieve with that paragraph, and see if that helps with the detail.
If you're feeling really brave, you could start a critique thread here. Post only the initial paragraphs which comprise the first scene (the first two - five, in this case), and see if anyone is willing to help. Again, you should try to explain what you are trying to achieve in the scene.
AbCarter wrote:
how did they make this this long?
My first question would be: is the story driven by narrative or dialogue? Next, is the story linear? Does it go from point A to point B to point C in a straight line? And are there more than three points?
Only three points are needed for a beginning, a middle, and an end, but there are more than three letters in the alphabet. A good story is woven. Mix up the letters a bit, reference previous letters, hint at upcoming letters, throw in a couple of loops, and add a nice bow to finish. Of course, that's just my take on things. And here's a challenge: try writing a story where each para begins with a different letter of the alphabet, and in sequence. With no dialogue.
IMNSHO, dialogue should be in addition to the narrative, not the other way round. But given how much I cannot read pure dialogue, I am slightly biased.
8/28/2007 #2 ReportOoh, longer chapters, huh? My chapters aren't too long either, they're about 2000+ words long. I think authors can make their chapters really long because a lot of things happen in that one chapter. I tend to have my chapters focus on one event - I've seen authors focus on a few events in one chapter. For instance, in a war story you could choose to cover the initial siege on the castle, and end there. A longer chapter might focus on the build-up to the siege (instead of just starting with the charging of battle), detail the battle heavily, show the main character perhaps giving support to the people or having a conversation with his lover, have a surprise charge from the enemy, and so on. It could continue to detail the first three days of battle, whereas the shorter chapter only did the first day.
8/28/2007 #3 ReportFor me an average chapter is about 2000 words in length. However, in my opinion, chapters are not dictated by word or page length, instead a chapter should be determined by the events taking place
For instance, in a war story you could choose to cover the initial siege on the castle, and end there. A longer chapter might focus on the build-up to the siege (instead of just starting with the charging of battle), detail the battle heavily, show the main character perhaps giving support to the people or having a conversation with his lover, have a surprise charge from the enemy, and so on.
That's what I mean. Long chapters are good and useful. Lets say a person writes a 1000 word scene and it's full of detail, has dialogue, action, basically everything that makes a chapter a good chapter. Then lets say that same chapter is dragged out to 2000 or 3000 words for no reason than the fact it was too short. In those situations I find it is better just to stck to the original wrk of 1000 words. Long chapters are good and useful, but short chapters can also be utilised to great effect. Don't drag out a chpater of word counts sake only is what I'm trying to say.
8/29/2007 #4 ReportI tend to agree with 'Dragon,' but 'Skye' said one thing I agree with whole heartely... A good starting point would be to think what you are trying to achieve with that paragraph, and see if that helps with the detail.I don't like adding words just to fill things up. Every sentence needs to serve a purpose. You have to decide where the focus of the chapter (or scene if you include more than one event in a chapter) is to be and tailor everything to that. Is it strictly going to focus on the interaction between the characters? Then more description might just distract from that. The scene in the park, for example, I thought there were just enough details to paint the back ground with a watercolor brush and let me focus on the characters. I didn't need EVERY detail spelled out for me - they really weren't important.
Now if the real focus was on Llew's mood I might have actually gone into more detail and tailored the park scene to enhance or contrast his feelings and drawn a more detailed picture. Maybe the park echoed and enhanced his mood - it was early morning so maybe a damp shroud of fog hung over the grass, the bushes glistened with dew drop like tears, the bird songs were muffled to the point of sounding mournful or respectful. Or maybe everything was gay and bright and cheerful and it just made his gloom stand out like an achingly sore thumb. The dialogue would have provided an additional way for the reader to experience his despair.
It’s a matter of choice. Sometimes you want the reader to experience the background ambiance, sometimes you don't. You should choose what will enhance and carry the mood of your scene. Good writers will use more than one - dialogue character driven scenes in one part, detailed settings where dialogue is just additional support in another. It's a conscious decision the writer needs to make. My chapters, by the way, in one story range from 492 words all the way up to over 5000. I would guess my average is probably between 1500 to 3000, but is can vary wildly depending on the ground the chapter needs to cover - I write with an event/plot point/revelation in mind and one chapter will include everything it takes to get to that goal.
For example, one of the chapters in a story I'm writing deals with an unprovoked attack on a city so I wrote about bodies in the streets, buildings on fire, acrid smoke in the air, weapons' fire in the distance -- description heavy -- I want my readers to have an idea what the environment looks/feels like so they have an idea what my character is experiencing as she tries to escape through the unexpected destruction. That chapter consists of roughly 3 'events' strung together leading up to the point when the reason for the attack is revealed to her and it sets her up to meet the enemy in the next chapter. It runs almost 3000 words.
In a previous chapter, however, when that same character was woken up from a sound sleep by someone carrying warning of the coming attack I focus on the people. I know my character was sleeping in a king sized four poster style bed, and that she has a big cushy couch in the corner of the room with an expensive music system and a library, but those details don't support the scene so they weren't included. My readers do know that there were chests at the foot of the bed, but only because one of the characters in the scene goes to them to pull out a pair of boots. This whole chapter focuses entirely on the dialogue and internal reactions of the main character (which also serves, in the course of the exchange, to reveal specific non-canon/author-invented information to the reader). In my opinion, more background details would have only distracted and diluted from what I was wanting to convey - the stunning revelation that life as she knew it was about to end. That chapter runs just over 1350 words.
I guess the point I'm trying to make, is let your story control the word count, rather than let the desire for words control you. There is a story I read here on FanFic somewhere in which the writer made each chapter exactly 100 words. It was a good story. My only complaint was I had dial-up at the time and it took me longer to load each chapter than it did to read them - LOL - but it was a good story. Chapters don't have to verbose to be good.
8/31/2007 . Edited 8/31/2007 #5 ReportYou could try describing the exact setting where your characters are so it can help the reader get more into the picture of what you are imagining.
Also describe what their wearing, thinking, or make authors notes in the story.
8/31/2007 #6 ReportMaking A/N's is not the best idea in the world, in my opinion. A/N's should be at the start and finish of chapters and should be kept short. At least that's how I feel. A/N's seem (to me) as if they intrude in a chapter and pull the reader right out of the mood or setting that's already taken place. This is also a pet peeve of mine so I'm probably biased.
I read an interesting thing the other day about how an author shouldn't over describe a place. Taking the example from before lets say a park. Now, immediately when I stated park, what was the first thing that jumped into your mind? From a guess, I'd say it is different from my view. Now lets say there's a tree in the park. Is your tree the same type of tree as mine? Does it look the same? I doubt it. So is it really necessary to go into description about exactly how the tree looks? Not really. Just stating there is a tree is enough description.
Clothing I find, is hardly descrbed in my stories and if they are, it's usually if it's something unusual. If some staets it is winter, I imagine people wearing clothing suitable for winter.
Description is the best bet for extending the word count, but as I've stated, you have to know what to describe and what not to. Somethings should be described, while others should not. It's a careful balance that I personally find annoying. Too much is boring, while too little is empty space.
8/31/2007 #7 ReportI probably have a bit of the opposite problem. My average chapter length is about 5 and a half thousand words. I have set a rule that if the chapter gose over 7,000 words, I need to find a place somewear in it to end before the 7,000th word. Then I put whatever is left on the next chapter. The shortest chapter is a little over 3,000 words.
I tend to describe alot of the environment, but I also have quite a bit of dialog and descriptions of what people are thinking too. Probably helps that the story takes place in two different realities and has several characters in it. I kind of figured it would be a long story when I wrote out the out line, but I didn't expect it to get this long. I honestly don't know how I wind up writing long chapters though. Not to the point where they wind up to be as long as they are.
Personaly, I don't think chapter length matters. If you can tell a good story in 500 words or less and you are truly happy with it, Then it is good. Likewise, if you wind up with a 200,000 word story, that's ok too. Some of the best written works in history are rather short. Examples would be several poems and haikus.
9/1/2007 #8 ReportMaking A/N's is not the best idea in the world, in my opinion.
No, definitely not. Never ever put an A/N inside the story text. It disrupts the flow of the story and just lessens the quality of your work, aside from irritating most people. You never see published books with comments from the author in the text, do you?
9/2/2007 #9 ReportWhat I've found out is that in some stories authors write, the author doesn't out any A/N's in, but the narrator does say something. Whether it be witty or melodramatic, the narrator acts in place of the author. This is sometimes done, but it is very easy to screw up. A wrong note from the narrator can hugely disrupt the flow of a chapter. If it is done, it should only be done to add to the effect all ready being built.
9/2/2007 . Edited 9/2/2007 #10 ReportA good example of this would probably be the A Series of Unfortunate Events series. I love to listen in when my daughter gets these on tape. The author also sets it up from the very beginning so the reader is not blindsided when the narrator slips in to offer some witty bit of information (such as when he "stops" to explain, in typical "Lemony" style, how a large or difficult word just mentioned in the narrative is being used and applied).
9/3/2007 . Edited 9/4/2007 #11 ReportAlso describe what their wearing, thinking, or make authors notes in the story.
Description for the sake of description is never a good idea in my opinion. It should serve a purpose, like setting the mood or helping the reader understand what someone may be thinking or feeling (such as the occasional facial expression). It annoys me when people write every single detail they can think of without thought of whether it is important or not; just because you the writer knows that a character is 6 foot 2 does not mean you need to tell the reader. If a character is tall, that's fine. Instead of giving the reader a measurement, why not mention that the main character felt intimidated, or that he or she was annoyed to feel so short?
Sorry, pet peeve. And as far as author's notes within a story go, unless done in an unusual, interesting way they should be left well alone. I've never read more than a few paragraphs in a fanfiction story that has them.
(Another example, I think, that good "author's notes" can be done is Terry Pratchett's footnotes. Some may disagree of course, but I like them and think the technique is used well. Like in A Series of Unfortunate Events, the appearance of footnotes is usually early on in the books that he uses them; that way they are less jarring when they crop up in the middle of the narrative.)
On the subject of long versus short chapters I actually don't have much to add. Both, if well-written, work well, and I certainly wouldn't agonize over one that I deemed short. Of course, I don't exactly have much experience with writing anything other than one-shots...
9/4/2007 #12 ReportThis is how long my chapters are. Some are getting pretty lengthy as I am sure you will agree. Now I can split my chapters easily enough, but before I do that I want what you would consider to be a “perfect” chapter length. So, how many words would you consider to be just the right amount to read? Not too long, but not too short?
Chapter 1/ Prolog: 1408
Chapter 2: 4072
Chapter 3: 4807
Chapter 4: 2935 (Not finished. More of a draft sort of version)
Chapter 5: 5998
Chapter 6: 6958
Chapter 7: 7862
P.s. Sorry, but my story is not on FF.net yet: it is only being posted when it is complete.
9/5/2007 #13 Reportwhat you would consider to be a “perfect” chapter length
There is no such thing as perfect chapter length. But the list you've posted looks good enough to me. Just don't post all chapters at once. And if you are adding more to chapter 7 you may have to consider cutting it in half. Though progressively increasing chapter lengths are also quite interesting.
9/5/2007 #14 ReportThere is no such thing as perfect chapter length
I completely agree with that statement. Different chapter lengths are used for different affects, also people have their own diffination of a good chapter length. Those who read slowly may prefer short chapters while those who read faster may like longer chapters.
9/5/2007 #15 ReportSo, how many words would you consider to be just the right amount to read? Not too long, but not too short?
Excluding prologues, anything more than 2000 words and less than 10 000 words is fine with me. But it really depends on the story and the author, different people write differently, with different styles and all that.
9/6/2007 #16 Report...what you would consider to be a “perfect” chapter length. The perfect chapter length is the length required to get your story from point A to point B whether its by covering a particular scene, revealing a certain plot point, experiencing a certain event, or what ever through narrative, description, dialogue, etc that the reader finds interesting and can ideally be read in one sitting or less - for me that is usually (but not always) 15 minutes to a half hour, but of course that is not the same for everyone. I think it would be impossible to nail down a "perfect" length because there are so many subjective variables.
The main issue I find in chapter length is interest level. Can the author keep the me, the reader, hooked and draw me from one sentence to the next. I've finished reading chapters 1500 words long that I said "Thank goodness that's over," and I've read 7000+ word chapters that I've said, "What? Already?" If you have a chapter pushing 8000 words, maybe you DO want to break it up, but only if the story provides the opportunity to do so without breaking the flow.
As a reader, I personally think the "perfect" chapter length is better determined by the content than the word count.
9/6/2007 #17 ReportThe thing is, to me, a chapter just separates a large change in a story. Now, when you are writing a book this means that a chapter can be as long or as short as you like. Readers can put a book down and mark a page so that they can come back later. But I'm sure you will agree that it is difficult to stop halfway through a chapter on ff.net and pick it back up again...
When I read stories with really short chapters on FF.net I'm left wanting more, especially when I have to wait a week or longer for an update: it makes the reading disjointed. This is probably not the same for everyone, but this is how I imagine the majority of people think. (I am one of those people who believe the world revolves around me, and therefore everyone must also think like me.)
chapter 7 you may have to consider cutting it in half. Though progressively increasing chapter lengths are also quite interesting
Chapter 7 is completed; I'm half way through chapter 8 at the moment. *grins* The increasing chapter length I think is because it is getting to the middle of the story, and thus, more action to be put into each chapter. (I think that is the reason anyway.)
Anyway, thanks guys. I agree with you Rhea on the between 2000 and 10,000... hmmm.. Maybe I will dub 6000 words the perfect chapter length... slap bang in the middle. I'm just joking there. Sort of.
I personally think the "perfect" chapter length is better determined by the content than the word count
Then by your reasoning you'd think that a good fic should have longer chapters because the reader is hooked, and a rubbish fic have shorter chapters to give the reader a break. I'm just messing. You all have a point that it should be the content that determines how long a chapter should be... I just like hard facts; they mean I don't have to think as much.
9/6/2007 . Edited 9/6/2007 #18 ReportI used to be really, really bad. And it was amazing that I even managed 1000 a chap.
Now, on my new story, I'm approaching 2k-a-chap, and that'll probably increase to 3k as I go on. This story, I like it way, way more.
Most of my friends in the fandom average 4-or-5k-a-chap, except for the other girls, who are still struggling to break 1000.
9/8/2007 #19 Reportwhat you would consider to be a “perfect” chapter length
To me this thread is a non-issue. I'm in agreement with Amita on this and would sum it up by saying, don't ask is this chapter is long enough, but rather, did this chapter accomplish its intended goal.
10/20/2007 #20 ReportUm, White-Eyebrow? The topic had kinda... died.
Theads can always be resurrected. My chapter lengths seem to be around 3000 words. It works for me. However, if I'm on a roll and I have more to say, I have no problem going beyond that number.
10/20/2007 #22 ReportUm, White-Eyebrow? The topic had kinda... died. When I'm new to a forum I rarely think to look for dates - I've added comments to threads that were "dead" for over a year, felt embarassed when I realized it, then was glad I did because it started up a whole new round of discussion with new input and new perspectives. I agree with Maryilee, no thread is ever really "dead" :o).
I have, however, probably said more than anyone ever wanted to hear about my perspectives on chapter length - LOL.
10/22/2007 #23 ReportI've read a fic that had over 300k words and only 45 chapters, and yet the chapters weren't too long. Personally, a chapter is too short only if it breaks the flow of the story, although I tend to not read any story with chapters less than 500 words long.
Right now, my average chapter (not including prologues, forewords, prefaces or epilogues) is about 4-5k words long. However, each chapter is composed of many scenes that can be anywhere from 20 to well over a thousand words long. I usually lengthen too-short chapters by touching on characters I haven't touched on for a while (what has Jazz been doing for the last three chapters?) or fleshing out the story (think I'll place a gun on this table and fire it in the next two chapters...)
11/6/2007 . Edited 11/6/2007 #24 ReportLately, I try to get about 4k words a chapter, but if a chapter is shorter, I don't feel compelled to make it longer, unless it is way too short. I feel like each chapter has one or two specific goals or ideas to get across, and when that has happened, it's done.
11/6/2007 #25 ReportMy problem is, I end the chapter under a thousand words. I know description is hard (being blind), but I get frustrated with under 1 K words.
1/9/2010 #26 ReportMan, and people said the thread had died before.
Anyway, description for its own sake is vastly overrated, and you should describe only things that are important to the plot or theme of the story. Maybe what you need to ask yourself is whether the chapter contains enough substance. A chapter should be like a small story of its own, with a coherent beginning, middle, and end, and a conflict throughout that gets resolved at the end.
1/9/2010 #27 Report"what you need to ask yourself is whether the chapter contains enough substance. A chapter should be like a small story of its own, with a coherent beginning, middle, and end, and a conflict throughout that gets resolved at the end."
That is a very good idea; I never really looked at it like that before.
1/9/2010 #28 ReportI know description is hard (being blind)
Description isn't just about what people can see, but also about what they feel and are thinking. Your problem is probably that you can't get very close to the characters and describe what they are really feeling and thinking. The room where a scene is set in should be dealt with two sentences or less.
Describing the environment usually doesn't serve the plot or the story, and is just padding (to add words). It might as well be left out.
1/10/2010 #29 Reportwrote:"Describing the environment usually doesn't serve the plot or the story, and is just padding (to add words). It might as well be left out."
That makes me feel better. I didn't really think of the other senses; that's a good point. Thanks:)
1/10/2010 #30 Report Reply 
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