A goal of mine in these stories is to build LoVe into a solid relationship. In STH I gave them a foundation of coming together and apart and not falling out of love as they did it. Then in T2B they tried to find balance and go deeper, revealing parts of themselves. Now they have to figure out how to be together without losing themselves- which both would hate. Of course there will be other threats to their relationship.
My challenge now is to keep them interesting while keeping them together. If I want to see them at odds, I can watch the show. Currently in H&S they're happy and together, but there will be challenges, I just don't want to write them unhappy and struggling all the time. So for now, it's happiness.2/20/2011 #1 Report
More from my chat with Fatherlessgirls:
As I already said, one of my set goals for this fic was to keep them together and keep it interesting. Show writers always say you/they can'd do it, but I wanted to try. Of course it helps that the readers are already invested in LoVe or they wouldn't be reading this story. I was going to have breakups, the two in STH were planned from the beginning, but I wanted them to be really embedded in the story and the characters.
Interestingly enough, once I put them together and had that base of a relationship built I found it really hard to have them fight actively. Yeah, making them mad, misunderstandings, jealousy, differences all over the place, but to fight actively everything I think of for them to say is so mean it feels out of character and wrong. I feel like they should have this respect for each other on a deep/base level that doesn't disappear when they're angry or upset, and that makes confrontations hard.
Another thing I didn't plan on in the beginning (like Logan being smart, or a francophile) was having LoVe be so sexual. But once my brain turned to the season 2 and how the show did Veronica with Duncan, I felt like I had to include LoVe's physical relationship. For me, it's not just about sex, their physical relationship is completely reflective of their emotional connection. It's a safe place for them to communicate their feelings for each other in a safe (mostly nonverbal) way.8/10/2011 #2 Report
My thought process on Logan's jackass behavior after the second breakup in STH (after the first time the words break up were spoken but before the "actual" breakup, when Logan sets his ring tone as "self esteem" and is a dick to V) is that he was confused by her behavior and hurt- and the fact that Logan act's out when hurt and confused, and the fact that I think he's one of those people who pushes. He pushes people away then when they leave he says "I knew it."8/11/2011 #3 Report
Yeah, as I mentioned to you, in my opinion the "Self Esteem" scene really took the nastiness to the next level. If I was Veronica that would have been a point of no return for me. Using their sex life, and her desire for him, to publicly embarrass her? No. And if you had handled it differently I might have found their quick reconciliation hard to accept. If you had made Veronica hurt and upset over it, but willing to forgive him with the appropriate apology, I might have thought she was being spineless. But, in your story she wasn't hurt or mortified, and that changed everything for me. She was more "Logan, what the hell are trying to do?" than "Logan, how could you do this to me?" and that made me look at Logan's action in a different way. She knows him. She knows he is just trying to force a confrontation, not trying to devalue their relationship. I still consider it to be a low point in their relationship, but not a deal breaker.
Also, I need to say that I think you do a really good job of making them fight in a meaningful way without breaking them up. That jealousy fight in the 2nd story was a thing of beauty. Perfect. I also like their fights that don't spin out of control, like the one about sexual fantasies at the end of the 2nd story. I love how they handled that. It showed real growth for both characters. I especially love Logan's line at the end: "I'm glad we had this chat". Very cute. Very funny.9/26/2011 #4 Report
That scene was brutal and tough for me...I thought it up, but like you thought it was too harsh. But it was simply too "good" to not use. Vintage jackass Logan behavior, making a reappearance at a lunch table near you. I think he was hiding his insecurity about Veronica by being a jackass with his friends, and V was hiding hers when she heard the ringtone...partly because she wouldn't want the 09ers to see and partly because it was a ploy by Noah and she recognized it as such. She expected the hit and that made it easier for to see through it and Logan in that moment. And I really did understand both their motives in that moment... V was trying to reconnect with Logan with sex, and Logan was confused about her having sex with him when he was thinking that V wanted to get away from him.
I think I put in the author's notes that it's hard for me to make them fight randomly. I need it to come from somewhere, not just be something trivial. I think when your life is full of big dramatic things, that little things like "why'd you drink the last of the milk" or "why didn't you wash the towels with your sweatshirt" become less important. Also there is so much going on at any one time in the stories that they don't need random drama to keep up the drama. At least that's my opinion.
I like to make their fights be about or stem from larger issues so it might start with the dishes but it ends up being about her commitment issues or his self esteem. I think I have them take turns at being mature. So when she's like "lets talk about this like adults" he's a child, and when he tries to get serious, she making a break for the door.
I wonder what will happen when they're both at their worst at the same time?9/26/2011 #5 Report
"I wonder what will happen when they're both at their worst at the same time?"
Nooooooooo! Ok, I trust you. Just, be gentle with my emotions. I don't know how many explosive fights I can take.
Also, this last post of yours cleared a few things up for me about that fight. A part of him was actually angry with her for having sex with him at the same time that she was, he thought, asking him to stay away from her. He must have felt like she was toying with him - trying to have her cake and eat it too. If he really thought the sex they were having was unfair to him then I can see that he might have wanted to express some anger about that.9/28/2011 #6 Report
Well, you know it will happen eventually. Not that I have anything specific in mind. In STH I had the two breakups planned almost from the beginning. For the current story I have rough plans for the whole year but not the day to day stuff past December. I am never more of a type A/Virgo/OCD/control freak than when it comes to my story timelines.
I wish I could say I've been writing. Work has been killing me. Still. More. It would help if I was naturally a morning person, but I'm more nocturnal. So little sleep, long stressful work, then home and a million things that distract me.
But for good news, the ideas for Logan and V are flowing. I have a massive list of ideas, and short conversation bits. Logan's therapy may need to be it's own story there is so much going on there. But first I have to get him to the place where therapy happens. In one of the future fic chapters, I think it's like chapter 10, but it takes place their 2nd year of college, Logan is the emotionally and mentally healthy one who's connected to friends and family and V is the messed up one. That chapter is very dark and long, and about 90% done. If only this story would write itself like that one does.
All your comments make me think about this story and how I need to get back to it, so thanks. I realized awhile ago that I had stopped posting STH to lifejournal (way too long of chapters to deal with LJ) so I went back to finish posting....thinking that I should and that I might get some feedback which might help with the motivation issue. But... no. Not a single review. Lots of people reading, but zero response. Ah well.9/28/2011 #7 Report
Hey, I read some chapters of STH and T2B again, and there's something I can really understand.
Why Logan seems more secure about Veronica's feeling for him at the beginning of their relationship (for exemple in the chapter "Nobody leaves" he is sure that Veronica loves him even if they have a lot of issues), than at the end of T2B when their relationship is suppose to be stronger, he doesn't seem to be secure about Veronica's feeling, and seems not really believing her when she told him that she loves him?
Sorry if I'm not clear... ;)10/27/2011 #8 Report
At first when i read this comment I thought...oops, they have a point. But then I stopped to think about it and realized I did have a reason for that, a core reason.
In the middle of STH, Logan and Veronica are still falling in love. That is a stage in the relationship full of hope and heightened emotions. At the point where Logan is trying to win Veronica back after breaking up with her following his mother's suicide attempt- they're still falling in love and finding their feet. Logan wanted her love, wanted to believe, wanted that affirmation that he was good enough. And when she continued to help him (after he dumped her) and then told him she loved him he wanted it enough to believe it. Then when she withdrew (after finding Lynn) he was fighting for her, struggling to win her back. In having something external to struggle for he didn't have time for the inner, darker, doubting voices to rise up.
Later after STH progresses, Logan is even more damaged than before, Veronica left him (over and over), he finds out his father killed Lilly, and his mother is leaving him (again). As much as he loves and needs Veronica at the end of STH he lets her walk away, pushes her away before she can leave him. At this point he's trying to protect himself from the hurt that he sees coming- leaving her first. He doesn't really believe that she can love him enough to stay- to put up with all his issues and everything that comes with him (his issues, his behavior, his father, the media attention). From Logan's perspective everyone leaves him, and even if they love him, it's not enough- not enough to motivate them to stay or treat him well, or understand him for all his flaws.
"Nobody leaves" is the opposite of what both characters believe to be true- everyone leaves.
So in T2B I have them settling into their relationship without the constant danger, breaking up and other emotional and plot hurdles. At that point in time, Logan doesn't have anything to struggle against. His father is out of his life, he and his mom are doing alright, his friends are there, and his relationship with Veronica is smooth sailing (more or less), so the internal voices rise up. She won't stay, she can't really love you, she just thinks she loves you, she doesn't know you, not the real you, if she did she would run away without a backwards glance. Because in Logan's mind he is not worthy of love, and especially not from someone like Veronica who he has put on a pedestal of emotional and moral purity.
I don't know if most people feel like that, and I try to avoid generalities, but I can only speak from my own emotional understanding of the world and that is the understanding of a child who had one parent as an abuser and the other who turned a blind eye. It effects everything about how I see the world, how I relate to others, even how I view myself. People (here goes the generalities) don't really understand that- I can't even count the number of times people (close friends) have said to me directly or in a roundabout way "get over it." As if it were so simple. Never feeling safe, even or especially in your own home, never feeling loved (because how do you love someone and hurt them, try to destroy them). And the blame. My god, the self blame. If only I were better, smarter, prettier, more popular, more obedient, more outgoing, more docile, more of something... if only I was FILL IN THE BLANK, they would love me, protect me, care for me.
Physical abuse is brutal, but it is the emotional scars never really leave you. You learn to live with them, even make a good life, but it doesn't go away. The very foundation of how you see the world, the foundation of who you are, was shaped in an environment that was painful and the opposite of supportive. You're not like other people- people who had parents that loved and supported them. So for one of them (yes it very much feels like and us/them paradigm) to say to you "get over it" literally makes me want to hit something. It's not simple. It's not easy. It's not quick. And you will always have moments, days, buttons, that you may or may not see coming or understand. (That I think is common to everyone, but maybe the intensity varies depending on the trauma that caused it.) I can't forget, I can't go back, I understand, I move forward. And I was one of the lucky ones, i got out with most of my soul still intact. I realized very early in my childhood that my father was the one with issues and it wasn't about me. He'd come at me raging about something I had done, ranting and tearing me down and some core part of my personality would stand up straight, look him in the eye, and declare "you're the asshole, not me." Not that i ever said that out loud- I didn't have a death wish, but be assured that he got the message. At some point I did the math and came up with the result that while capitulating to him would result is less tears and bruises, it would tear pieces off my soul that I would never get back. (sorry if that is TMI)
In the story I wanted to address at least some bits of the reality of what it is to be an abused child- even long after you are removed from proximity with your abuser.
Logan expects to be alone, he expects everyone he assigns value to to see him as unworthy. In T2B I have Veronica beginning to see that and understand him and him struggling to hold on to her while dealing with his own issues (or not dealing with them, but rather just living with them).
I think it's easy to say I love you, and maybe you even mean it. But words are not love, love is in the action of being there, day after day, year after year, especially in the bad times. Love is accepting someone even when they've let you or themselves down, it's loving them anyway and not judging them for their mistakes. How many times have any of us thought we cared deeply about someone only to find they weren't the person we thought they were...and did our feelings for them change as a result?
Logan expects Veronica to leave just as soon as he lets her close enough to see how fucked up he really is. He wants to believe that she loves him, he wants it to be true, he just can't quite get there in his mind. That's where they were in T2B.
Does that make sense? (how about that emotional purging?)10/30/2011 #9 Report
I can only imagine how hard it is to be at Logan's place (and yours?) I never lived that so I can't truly say that I understand how hard it is to moved on what happened, even if I, of course, understand how awful it is, and the feelings that are brings by it.
I just thought that with everything that happened between V and Logan, he would have understand that she was here to stay, after how he treated her the both time they broke up, she still came back it show how much she cares and loves him.
I do understand what he must feels about his past, and I trust you to make him deal and heal about that in the way you think the more real. ;)
I'm really sorry I really don't have a lot of vocabulary so it's hard to really explain what I think, but I want you to know that I really understand everything you said, and thanks for answering my question :)11/2/2011 #10 Report
I think it is also about degrees of love. At the beginning of their relationship he loved her and found it relatively easy to believe that she matched that love, but as his love for her intensifies he begins to doubt that she can match that new degree of devotion. However, I don't think it is the intensity of his love as much as how high the stakes have become for him, that sends him into a tailspin of self-doubt. In other words I don't think it is that he specifically and actively doesn't believe that she loves him, but more that he realizes how utterly ruined he will be if it turns out that she doesn't and that is the thought that terrifies him. I guess it's a small distinction, but it feels big in my head.
Also, as a side note: Jenwin, I am constantly amazed at how generous you are at sharing pieces of yourself with your readers. It is inspiring. Thank you for trusting us with your personal story as well as this wonderful work of fiction.11/2/2011 #11 Report
I think you're right about the deeper their relationship goes the more of a worry it is for Logan, he's building his life around Veronica, and the idea that she could/should/will leave is a debilitating one. I also think that he can simultaneously believe that she loves him (or at least thinks she does), but will still leave him- whether that is because he messes up, she sees who he 'really' is, or doesn't really love him. As for me sharing, I always think talking about it is a big bummer for most people, so I don't. But, and I don't think you meant this at all, but not talking about it, or treating it like a big secret implies that I have something to be ashamed about. And I used to think that way too, but I don't anymore. It is personal, but it's not usually a touchy subject for me.11/2/2011 #12 Report
Thanks, both you're explanation makes Logan's thought really clearer (or do we say more clear?)11/5/2011 #13 Report
"much clearer" or "much more clear" Either one works. Mais, il est vachement bien, ton anglais. Serieux.11/5/2011 #14 Report
Oh my, so sorry for everything you went trought...Now I see why you can so well portrait his character.
On happier topics, i like to see them so close and sex is one important thing, so they are not too sexual for me...what is unsettling is the kind of knowledge they have on sex in general considering their age, but then they grow up faster then the average teenager, him on LA with movie stars as parents and her following cheaters in motels .... And both of them had internet as a source and for him al lot of experience as well. When I was their age internet didn't exist and the most hot thing we could put our hands on were some porno magazines (Le ore and Playboy), science books and the occasional condoms found somewhere secluded in our houses....
Finally, I agree with you that the more they become close the more they worry about losing it, but not just Logan, I think that also Veronica feel the same. After they kissed during the U2 concert in LA Logan toughts hinted at it ...'To have something is to be at risk of losing it or having it taken away.' and now he just doesn't have something he finally has everything he ever wanted with her....so the fear and the worry exscalated accordingly and as stange as it is the self doubt.
Good night (here is 2 am),
Fifty10/6/2012 #16 Report