
1/17 c10 H - you - man
When will the continuation of Multi-Love be released?
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When will the continuation of Multi-Love be released?
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10/25/2024 c1 Guest
Pls continue
Pls continue
8/22/2024 c1 Guest
Pls continue
Pls continue
7/26/2024 c10 Guest
Wish Ben turned to Way Big during the fight with Kyber
Wish Ben turned to Way Big during the fight with Kyber
5/11/2024 c10 shresthadavis
Can you please also have ben use the aliens ultimate forms in this story as you update it?
Can you please also have ben use the aliens ultimate forms in this story as you update it?
3/25/2024 c10 shriramasokan
Max doesn't imply the DNAliens are after the Omnitrix, just that he intends to keep it safe because it's a highly valuable piece of alien technology. You could argue that they might be looking for it anyway, but that's not what Max is saying and they aren't really presented as going after it.
The issue is that without the UAF Plumbers, Max's trail goes cold almost immediately. He's left behind a message that Ben interprets to mean he wants him to use the Omnitrix again, and there's a mysterious group of new aliens involved somehow. However, these aliens can and do perfectly disguise themselves as human beings and operate in secret, with little to really draw attention to them. I didn't say Ben and Gwen were incompetent because I know that's not true, but they don't have any leads or anything they can use to start the investigation besides Max's message, which doesn't get them far.
Sure, they can theorise or research, but where are they supposed to start? They have no leads beyond a new kind of alien they've never seen before and have no one they can ask for information about. They have no idea about any kind of alien underworld without Kevin, they have no contacts or really anyone they can approach to get them going. They simply don't have enough information or resources to push them anywhere.
As for travel, I don't think Gwen could run on magic platforms for miles across the country, and whilst Ben does have aliens like Big Chill and Jetray who allow him to move around quickly, he is still limited - the Omnitrix doesn't seem to time out in early AF but he is still made to de-transform at various points. Plus the biggest issue is that only Ben could do this, unless he carried Gwen which wouldn't be very efficient.
They could maybe still meet Kevin, except they have no reason to. They don't even know he's on Earth so they have no reason to look for him or find any of his deals since they're conducted in relative secrecy. It's not impossible they could bump into one completely by chance, but the odds really aren't in their favour.
Last bit is entirely subjective, but I don't like the idea of keeping Kevin as an antagonist or having him join the group later, I feel he's an integral part of UAF and the series would be much worse with his absence from the main team.
Max doesn't imply the DNAliens are after the Omnitrix, just that he intends to keep it safe because it's a highly valuable piece of alien technology. You could argue that they might be looking for it anyway, but that's not what Max is saying and they aren't really presented as going after it.
The issue is that without the UAF Plumbers, Max's trail goes cold almost immediately. He's left behind a message that Ben interprets to mean he wants him to use the Omnitrix again, and there's a mysterious group of new aliens involved somehow. However, these aliens can and do perfectly disguise themselves as human beings and operate in secret, with little to really draw attention to them. I didn't say Ben and Gwen were incompetent because I know that's not true, but they don't have any leads or anything they can use to start the investigation besides Max's message, which doesn't get them far.
Sure, they can theorise or research, but where are they supposed to start? They have no leads beyond a new kind of alien they've never seen before and have no one they can ask for information about. They have no idea about any kind of alien underworld without Kevin, they have no contacts or really anyone they can approach to get them going. They simply don't have enough information or resources to push them anywhere.
As for travel, I don't think Gwen could run on magic platforms for miles across the country, and whilst Ben does have aliens like Big Chill and Jetray who allow him to move around quickly, he is still limited - the Omnitrix doesn't seem to time out in early AF but he is still made to de-transform at various points. Plus the biggest issue is that only Ben could do this, unless he carried Gwen which wouldn't be very efficient.
They could maybe still meet Kevin, except they have no reason to. They don't even know he's on Earth so they have no reason to look for him or find any of his deals since they're conducted in relative secrecy. It's not impossible they could bump into one completely by chance, but the odds really aren't in their favour.
Last bit is entirely subjective, but I don't like the idea of keeping Kevin as an antagonist or having him join the group later, I feel he's an integral part of UAF and the series would be much worse with his absence from the main team.
3/25/2024 c9 shriramasokan
As for UAF changes, if you cut out the space cop Plumbers then the entire plot never happens. Ben and Gwen don't find Magister Labrid who helps them reach the deal between the Forever Knights and the DNAliens, so they don't find it and thus don't meet Kevin, he never joins the team and the gang are left stumped on where to go following Max's first message. They also now lack any transport to get from place to place and are thus stuck on Earth for the rest of the story.
Yes they would
Ben and Gwen Are Perfectly Competent
The entire call to adventure is literally Max's disappearance and the DNAlien that was involved. Ben and Gwen would search. They aren't kids, but even when they were, they were able to figure shit out. Max's disappearance is hella reason for them to put their brains together and get into trouble
A good example of them working without Max's assistance would be in the Classic episode 'Super Alien Hero Buddy Adventures'
Not only that, but I'd assume Ben would try testing out his new aliens. Once he finds Brainstorm, that's a huge game changer. Brainstorm should be able to construct theories and plans based on what he can find out. Let's also not forget that Gwen is a researcher
In 'Lucky Girl', Gwen researched the Charms of Bezel
With Gwen's research and Brainstorm's intelligence, they should be able to figure it out. Not only that, but Max implies that the DNAliens were after the Omnitrix. I wouldn't be surprised if the plot actually got going because Ben and Gwen realized they were being followed by someone who just so happens to be a DNAlien in disguise
Plot moves slower, but it doesn't stop altogether. They're not incompetent
No Driver? No Problem!
Lacking the ability to move place to place becomes much less of an issue when Ben has Jetray and Big Chill. Not to mention that he has a hoverboard as well, and Gwen has magic platforms that can fly. It's surprisingly not an issue, especially since Ben knows he can detransform anytime he pleases without timing out
Plus, there is a chance they still meet Kevin. He operates in Bellwood now... for some reason? Since Ben and Gwen are investigating the underground of their own city, it makes sense that they'd run into eachother at some point. Hell, this gives Kevin a chance to stay an antagonist, or even have a much more interesting plot where he decides to team up with Gwen and Ben
I'm imagining that Ben and Gwen run in on one of his illegal trading meetups, similar tot he original story. However, this takes place around the middle of Season 1 instead. Ben uses an alien to interrupt, and Kevin fights him. However, Gwen comes out to stop the trade deal and the DNAliens reveal themselves. Maybe there are too many of them ganged up on Gwen,, so Ben has to save her. Meanwhile, Kevin makes his escape
As far as he's concerned, he just lost money from a good business deal. He doesn't know anything about an alien invasion. Yet at least. Maybe Ben and Gwen give him that information, and he doesn't believe it. Kevin could just say, "Just cause they're aliens doesn't mean they want to invade. Earth is just a backwater planet. Their words, not mine. Try again, Tennyson. I have a good business partner, and you're not about to ruin it!"
As for UAF changes, if you cut out the space cop Plumbers then the entire plot never happens. Ben and Gwen don't find Magister Labrid who helps them reach the deal between the Forever Knights and the DNAliens, so they don't find it and thus don't meet Kevin, he never joins the team and the gang are left stumped on where to go following Max's first message. They also now lack any transport to get from place to place and are thus stuck on Earth for the rest of the story.
Yes they would
Ben and Gwen Are Perfectly Competent
The entire call to adventure is literally Max's disappearance and the DNAlien that was involved. Ben and Gwen would search. They aren't kids, but even when they were, they were able to figure shit out. Max's disappearance is hella reason for them to put their brains together and get into trouble
A good example of them working without Max's assistance would be in the Classic episode 'Super Alien Hero Buddy Adventures'
Not only that, but I'd assume Ben would try testing out his new aliens. Once he finds Brainstorm, that's a huge game changer. Brainstorm should be able to construct theories and plans based on what he can find out. Let's also not forget that Gwen is a researcher
In 'Lucky Girl', Gwen researched the Charms of Bezel
With Gwen's research and Brainstorm's intelligence, they should be able to figure it out. Not only that, but Max implies that the DNAliens were after the Omnitrix. I wouldn't be surprised if the plot actually got going because Ben and Gwen realized they were being followed by someone who just so happens to be a DNAlien in disguise
Plot moves slower, but it doesn't stop altogether. They're not incompetent
No Driver? No Problem!
Lacking the ability to move place to place becomes much less of an issue when Ben has Jetray and Big Chill. Not to mention that he has a hoverboard as well, and Gwen has magic platforms that can fly. It's surprisingly not an issue, especially since Ben knows he can detransform anytime he pleases without timing out
Plus, there is a chance they still meet Kevin. He operates in Bellwood now... for some reason? Since Ben and Gwen are investigating the underground of their own city, it makes sense that they'd run into eachother at some point. Hell, this gives Kevin a chance to stay an antagonist, or even have a much more interesting plot where he decides to team up with Gwen and Ben
I'm imagining that Ben and Gwen run in on one of his illegal trading meetups, similar tot he original story. However, this takes place around the middle of Season 1 instead. Ben uses an alien to interrupt, and Kevin fights him. However, Gwen comes out to stop the trade deal and the DNAliens reveal themselves. Maybe there are too many of them ganged up on Gwen,, so Ben has to save her. Meanwhile, Kevin makes his escape
As far as he's concerned, he just lost money from a good business deal. He doesn't know anything about an alien invasion. Yet at least. Maybe Ben and Gwen give him that information, and he doesn't believe it. Kevin could just say, "Just cause they're aliens doesn't mean they want to invade. Earth is just a backwater planet. Their words, not mine. Try again, Tennyson. I have a good business partner, and you're not about to ruin it!"
3/25/2024 c8 shriramasokan
You're getting weirdly hung up on meaningful as a word choice here, so I'll stop using it since it seems to be causing some contention. What I meant is that I think the space-faring, intergalactic Plumber organisation makes for a more interesting story and allows for more to be done than you can do with the OS Plumbers - this isn't to say that you can't use the OS Plumbers in interesting ways or that they weren't a valuable part of the story or world, which I feel might be where the contention is coming from.
I also think your points about how the OS story would change are, whilst mostly accurate, a bit off in places. I don't think Ben 10 as a whole would be affected by the loss of the Ultimate Weapon episode, for example. It pretty much never comes up before or after that episode and could be harmlessly cut. There are also other easy changes one could make to keep the story similar, like just having the Forever King be after something else other than Sub-Energy. It just needs to be some kind of valuable power source. I also personally would not care one bit if we lost out on the Negative Ten, a mostly forgettable group of villains in my opinion. Point five, about the increased number of antagonists, is also pure speculation. If the Plumbers were written out, it stands to reason that you wouldn't write in a bunch of antagonists that they didn't stop. You don't usually add in more things when omitting parts of the world like that.
As for UAF changes, if you cut out the space cop Plumbers then the entire plot never happens. Ben and Gwen don't find Magister Labrid who helps them reach the deal between the Forever Knights and the DNAliens, so they don't find it and thus don't meet Kevin, he never joins the team and the gang are left stumped on where to go following Max's first message. They also now lack any transport to get from place to place and are thus stuck on Earth for the rest of the story.
Ben and Gwen wouldn't meet Darkstar if they weren't looking for other Plumber's kids, so he never shows up. Without the Plumber tech Manny, Helen and Pierce have - sidenote, I headcanoned that it was alien tech they stole or found on the black market like Kevin does, but that's not stated anywhere. That's just me having fun and has nothing to do witht the overall point here - they die to the High Breed and never get a chance to become relevant to the plot.
I personally think that if you were to remove either incarnation of the Plumbers, the story would drastically be different. Not necessarily better or worse, but definitely different. When I described the UAF Plumbers as more "meaningful" - I'll admit it might not have been the best word to use - what I mean is that I think they provided more for future stories overall than using the OS Plumbers would have, as I feel they are more limited in terms of what can be done with them when compared to the UAF Plumbers. I hope that makes it clearer what I've been trying to say here.
You're getting weirdly hung up on meaningful as a word choice here, so I'll stop using it since it seems to be causing some contention. What I meant is that I think the space-faring, intergalactic Plumber organisation makes for a more interesting story and allows for more to be done than you can do with the OS Plumbers - this isn't to say that you can't use the OS Plumbers in interesting ways or that they weren't a valuable part of the story or world, which I feel might be where the contention is coming from.
I also think your points about how the OS story would change are, whilst mostly accurate, a bit off in places. I don't think Ben 10 as a whole would be affected by the loss of the Ultimate Weapon episode, for example. It pretty much never comes up before or after that episode and could be harmlessly cut. There are also other easy changes one could make to keep the story similar, like just having the Forever King be after something else other than Sub-Energy. It just needs to be some kind of valuable power source. I also personally would not care one bit if we lost out on the Negative Ten, a mostly forgettable group of villains in my opinion. Point five, about the increased number of antagonists, is also pure speculation. If the Plumbers were written out, it stands to reason that you wouldn't write in a bunch of antagonists that they didn't stop. You don't usually add in more things when omitting parts of the world like that.
As for UAF changes, if you cut out the space cop Plumbers then the entire plot never happens. Ben and Gwen don't find Magister Labrid who helps them reach the deal between the Forever Knights and the DNAliens, so they don't find it and thus don't meet Kevin, he never joins the team and the gang are left stumped on where to go following Max's first message. They also now lack any transport to get from place to place and are thus stuck on Earth for the rest of the story.
Ben and Gwen wouldn't meet Darkstar if they weren't looking for other Plumber's kids, so he never shows up. Without the Plumber tech Manny, Helen and Pierce have - sidenote, I headcanoned that it was alien tech they stole or found on the black market like Kevin does, but that's not stated anywhere. That's just me having fun and has nothing to do witht the overall point here - they die to the High Breed and never get a chance to become relevant to the plot.
I personally think that if you were to remove either incarnation of the Plumbers, the story would drastically be different. Not necessarily better or worse, but definitely different. When I described the UAF Plumbers as more "meaningful" - I'll admit it might not have been the best word to use - what I mean is that I think they provided more for future stories overall than using the OS Plumbers would have, as I feel they are more limited in terms of what can be done with them when compared to the UAF Plumbers. I hope that makes it clearer what I've been trying to say here.
3/25/2024 c7 shriramasokan
Well, the plot would go by a little slower than before, but their goal is still the same and Ben has time to figure out his new aliens before any significant battle takes place
Maybe Kevin doesn't become part of the team, but Darkstar was defeated by Gwen both times. Michael and Alan might not be part of the show because their parents were Space Cops
Cooper is more important to the plotline actually! Interestingly enough
Ship still finds Ben and Julie. Instead of searching for a Plumber signal, he's just searching for any signal. The Omnitrix just so happens to be the strongest around, because it's the bloody Omnitrix and it's also alien in nature which is more helpful to Ship due to being on a backwater planet
Manny, Helen, and Pierce still exist. They literally have zero lore regarding how any of them know anything about Plumber technology or even their heritage. So, we can't conclude that they would be absent from the show. Perhaps their tech is more juryrigged together, but they'd still be fighting the Highbreed. Actually, they'd be more important to the plot since they're not immediately shoved into the Null Void so that they don't have to be written in until a later date
The plot of 'Voided' doesn't go too differently. Actually, Pierce was never in the Null Void to begin with. But, the plot of the episode literally starts with Gwen telling Ben that she was sent a telepathic message. Instead of Helen, it'd just be Max, which is more impactful to the story since he's presumed dead at this point
'War of the Worlds' is practically the same in every single way
Something important to note is that in UAF, the Null Void Projector isn't unique. There are multiple of them, so it can make sense for Max to have one in the beginning
So, things happen differently. Ben's story still continues though
If you remember for Classic, Ben loses the Omnitrix in 'Secrets' if the Plumbers didn't exist. So, that changes the entire story of the show
Well, the plot would go by a little slower than before, but their goal is still the same and Ben has time to figure out his new aliens before any significant battle takes place
Maybe Kevin doesn't become part of the team, but Darkstar was defeated by Gwen both times. Michael and Alan might not be part of the show because their parents were Space Cops
Cooper is more important to the plotline actually! Interestingly enough
Ship still finds Ben and Julie. Instead of searching for a Plumber signal, he's just searching for any signal. The Omnitrix just so happens to be the strongest around, because it's the bloody Omnitrix and it's also alien in nature which is more helpful to Ship due to being on a backwater planet
Manny, Helen, and Pierce still exist. They literally have zero lore regarding how any of them know anything about Plumber technology or even their heritage. So, we can't conclude that they would be absent from the show. Perhaps their tech is more juryrigged together, but they'd still be fighting the Highbreed. Actually, they'd be more important to the plot since they're not immediately shoved into the Null Void so that they don't have to be written in until a later date
The plot of 'Voided' doesn't go too differently. Actually, Pierce was never in the Null Void to begin with. But, the plot of the episode literally starts with Gwen telling Ben that she was sent a telepathic message. Instead of Helen, it'd just be Max, which is more impactful to the story since he's presumed dead at this point
'War of the Worlds' is practically the same in every single way
Something important to note is that in UAF, the Null Void Projector isn't unique. There are multiple of them, so it can make sense for Max to have one in the beginning
So, things happen differently. Ben's story still continues though
If you remember for Classic, Ben loses the Omnitrix in 'Secrets' if the Plumbers didn't exist. So, that changes the entire story of the show
3/25/2024 c6 shriramasokan
ou never provide any examples of how the UAF Space Cops were more meaningful than Classic Plumbers. In fact, I'd say they weren't nearly as integral to the story at all. If you cut them, then not a whole lot changes. In Classic, if you cut the Plumbers, then the entire story changes
The Null Void Projector isn't in Mount Rushmore. In fact, the Null Void Projector doesn't exist at all, and neither does any of the Plumber bases that are an integral plot to the series. So, Ben actually loses in 'Secrets' because the Plumbers didn't exist!
Vilgax has no history with Max. In fact, Vilgax might have actually taken over Earth or straight up makes the governments a puppet for whatever heinous project he's working on. Well, unless the Forever Knights get involved at least. There's a balancing act there, so maybe the Knights can fulfil certain roles in the Plumbers' absence due to being so similar
Sub energy? Well, the Forever King isn't getting that any time soon since it's not on Earth cause the Plumbers didn't help capture an alien convict. Actually, Driscroll might not be a Forever Knight at all! So... no more Negative 10!
Sludgepuppies would presumably live amongst Humans in secret, whether this be because they want to take over Earth or just want a place to live. Not entirely certain honestly
There'd also presumably be more antagonists to deal with as a whole since the Plumbers were an agency that took care of the "extraterrestrial, extrasensory, extraordinary." Despite being defunct for literal years, their work is bound to have impacted something
Oh yeah, Max, Gwen, and Ben are no longer able to resist the effects of corrodium due to the Plumber Hazmat Suit. In fact, Max and Gwen aren't able to space walk since they don't have this equipment
'The Ultimate Weapon' episode straight up doesn't happen
Max is actually now a famous astronaut that was part of Apollo 11. First man on the moon! So, he's recognized by a shitton of people!
If you cut UAF Space Cops, what happens?
ou never provide any examples of how the UAF Space Cops were more meaningful than Classic Plumbers. In fact, I'd say they weren't nearly as integral to the story at all. If you cut them, then not a whole lot changes. In Classic, if you cut the Plumbers, then the entire story changes
The Null Void Projector isn't in Mount Rushmore. In fact, the Null Void Projector doesn't exist at all, and neither does any of the Plumber bases that are an integral plot to the series. So, Ben actually loses in 'Secrets' because the Plumbers didn't exist!
Vilgax has no history with Max. In fact, Vilgax might have actually taken over Earth or straight up makes the governments a puppet for whatever heinous project he's working on. Well, unless the Forever Knights get involved at least. There's a balancing act there, so maybe the Knights can fulfil certain roles in the Plumbers' absence due to being so similar
Sub energy? Well, the Forever King isn't getting that any time soon since it's not on Earth cause the Plumbers didn't help capture an alien convict. Actually, Driscroll might not be a Forever Knight at all! So... no more Negative 10!
Sludgepuppies would presumably live amongst Humans in secret, whether this be because they want to take over Earth or just want a place to live. Not entirely certain honestly
There'd also presumably be more antagonists to deal with as a whole since the Plumbers were an agency that took care of the "extraterrestrial, extrasensory, extraordinary." Despite being defunct for literal years, their work is bound to have impacted something
Oh yeah, Max, Gwen, and Ben are no longer able to resist the effects of corrodium due to the Plumber Hazmat Suit. In fact, Max and Gwen aren't able to space walk since they don't have this equipment
'The Ultimate Weapon' episode straight up doesn't happen
Max is actually now a famous astronaut that was part of Apollo 11. First man on the moon! So, he's recognized by a shitton of people!
If you cut UAF Space Cops, what happens?
3/25/2024 c5 shriramasokan
Everything about the Plumbers being secretive on Earth and largely defunded and all that is still true, though. Nothing in UAF really contradicts that and the Plumbers are still a secret organisation that hides alien stuff from the public in UAF on Earth. As for the more meaningful part, if you check again and read what I actually said, I was saying that they were more meaningful changes to the story in that they significantly changed the story moving forward and allowed for more interesting developments. In other words, more was done with the retcon after it was introduced and that is what makes it more meaningful. I apologise, but I was under the impression this was obvious enough that I wouldn't need to clarify. I assure you I wasn't trying to be vague, I just assumed this was something one could easily pick up on. My apologies for not being clear enough there.
I also never said they were the same - it's made very clear that the Plumbers in UAF and the Plumbers of the OS are very different, I don't think abyone here is trying to dispute that and I apologise if it came off otherwise. It's not like I'm trying to argue this isn't a retcon or anything, it's a pretty big one. I just don't think it really contradicts anything previously established for the most part, so long as we interpret it as the Plumbers having operated differently on Earth than they did throughout the rest of the galaxy, which is how I always read it but if that's not the case for you then I apologise once more for my lack of clarity on the subject. Again, this was the natural assumption to me so I never really considered having to explain it any more than that.
When I say provided better story potential, I realise the confusion in my wording here but I mean that in regards to what was actually done with the story going forward. It was potential that was utilised. Kevin being a mutant again does also have potential, but it goes completely unexplored because we never see or interact with other mutants or expand on them in any way - something I would be entirely in favour of if they were to do so in OV! I would LOVE to learn more about mutants as another part of this world, but the Kevin retcon isn't interested in exploring that at all and so I consider it wasted potential. I'm sorry my wording here was unclear. To reiterate - the story potential of the Plumbers retcon was, in my opinion, well utilised and expanded on the story and world in ways I found better than the alternative of sticking to the OS Plumbers. The Kevin retcon did not utilise any of the potential of Kevin being a mutant or mutants existing in Ben 10, thus I find it to be worse because it doesn't expand on anything or open up any new stories except hypothetically.
This last point is mainly subjective - not that most of this isn't pretty subjective to begin with, just moreso now - but I don't really see any appeal in needing to make Ben, Gwen and Kevin all have unique origins for their powers. I don't really see that adding anything, and I personally prefer the alien stuff making the world and universe of Ben 10 feel more consistent. I don't like just having a bunch of different things that aren't explored all that well. I'm fine with magic since the series does a pretty good job of exploring how that works in various series, but mutants to me just feel like a cheap way to make Kevin more unique and frankly I just don't see the point.
I'm not sure I agree on the foil point either. Again this is more subjective, but I think it works better if Ben genuinely could become the same kind of person as Kevin both figuratively and literally, but his choices and who he is as a person make him not do so. I think if Ben literally couldn't become like Kevin it feels like it detracts more from him as a foil to Ben, but that's just me.
Everything about the Plumbers being secretive on Earth and largely defunded and all that is still true, though. Nothing in UAF really contradicts that and the Plumbers are still a secret organisation that hides alien stuff from the public in UAF on Earth. As for the more meaningful part, if you check again and read what I actually said, I was saying that they were more meaningful changes to the story in that they significantly changed the story moving forward and allowed for more interesting developments. In other words, more was done with the retcon after it was introduced and that is what makes it more meaningful. I apologise, but I was under the impression this was obvious enough that I wouldn't need to clarify. I assure you I wasn't trying to be vague, I just assumed this was something one could easily pick up on. My apologies for not being clear enough there.
I also never said they were the same - it's made very clear that the Plumbers in UAF and the Plumbers of the OS are very different, I don't think abyone here is trying to dispute that and I apologise if it came off otherwise. It's not like I'm trying to argue this isn't a retcon or anything, it's a pretty big one. I just don't think it really contradicts anything previously established for the most part, so long as we interpret it as the Plumbers having operated differently on Earth than they did throughout the rest of the galaxy, which is how I always read it but if that's not the case for you then I apologise once more for my lack of clarity on the subject. Again, this was the natural assumption to me so I never really considered having to explain it any more than that.
When I say provided better story potential, I realise the confusion in my wording here but I mean that in regards to what was actually done with the story going forward. It was potential that was utilised. Kevin being a mutant again does also have potential, but it goes completely unexplored because we never see or interact with other mutants or expand on them in any way - something I would be entirely in favour of if they were to do so in OV! I would LOVE to learn more about mutants as another part of this world, but the Kevin retcon isn't interested in exploring that at all and so I consider it wasted potential. I'm sorry my wording here was unclear. To reiterate - the story potential of the Plumbers retcon was, in my opinion, well utilised and expanded on the story and world in ways I found better than the alternative of sticking to the OS Plumbers. The Kevin retcon did not utilise any of the potential of Kevin being a mutant or mutants existing in Ben 10, thus I find it to be worse because it doesn't expand on anything or open up any new stories except hypothetically.
This last point is mainly subjective - not that most of this isn't pretty subjective to begin with, just moreso now - but I don't really see any appeal in needing to make Ben, Gwen and Kevin all have unique origins for their powers. I don't really see that adding anything, and I personally prefer the alien stuff making the world and universe of Ben 10 feel more consistent. I don't like just having a bunch of different things that aren't explored all that well. I'm fine with magic since the series does a pretty good job of exploring how that works in various series, but mutants to me just feel like a cheap way to make Kevin more unique and frankly I just don't see the point.
I'm not sure I agree on the foil point either. Again this is more subjective, but I think it works better if Ben genuinely could become the same kind of person as Kevin both figuratively and literally, but his choices and who he is as a person make him not do so. I think if Ben literally couldn't become like Kevin it feels like it detracts more from him as a foil to Ben, but that's just me.
3/24/2024 c4 shriramasokan
This is actually explained in an even earlier episode where Kevin explains that almost every human with powers gets them from alien heritage. This combined with the kids being the children of Plumbers, who are now established as an intergalactic organisation full of aliens, is all we need to make the connection that the show is very clearly wanting us to make.
A half-assed explanation that is present in the show itself has far more merit than any amount of detailed explanation that exists solely outside of the source material in my opinion. I personally only view a creator statement as valid if it is supported by what's in the show. Anything that isn't falls into headcanon territory as far as I'm concerned. I tend to apply this to all media - death of the author means that any writer's interpretation of their work is no more or less valid than that of any audience member, and the truth of a work is only what is in the work itself.
This is actually explained in an even earlier episode where Kevin explains that almost every human with powers gets them from alien heritage. This combined with the kids being the children of Plumbers, who are now established as an intergalactic organisation full of aliens, is all we need to make the connection that the show is very clearly wanting us to make.
A half-assed explanation that is present in the show itself has far more merit than any amount of detailed explanation that exists solely outside of the source material in my opinion. I personally only view a creator statement as valid if it is supported by what's in the show. Anything that isn't falls into headcanon territory as far as I'm concerned. I tend to apply this to all media - death of the author means that any writer's interpretation of their work is no more or less valid than that of any audience member, and the truth of a work is only what is in the work itself.
3/24/2024 c3 shriramasokan
What about the Plumbers is decharacterised? Them being a secret clandestine group of alien fighters on Earth doesn't contradict the galactic plumbers across the universe at all, it just tells us that they operated differently on places other than Earth.
OV had no reason to change Kevin to being a mutant and removing Osmosians. The story isn't really changed or moved forward in any way. Meanwhile, the changes to the Plumbers in UAF only add to the story and provide more possibilites for expanding the world and story. One of these serves a meaningful purpose for the story whilst the other doesn't do anything.
Hypocrisy and Ignorance at its finest lmao
Let's break it down:
Plumbers
What about them was decharacterized? Oh, I don't know. Perhaps all the lore that was threaded throughout the entirety of the Classic series! We're judging a retcon based on how much it changes, and this fundamentally changes the story
Classic Plumbers were a secret government organization, akin to the Men in Black. We even have examples of some of them being xenophobic.. In fact, the Plumbers had been defunct in Classic and practically replaced with SECT, so add 'Framed' to the list of episodes that UAF retconned. Plumbers were highly secretive, and did everything under the table
UAF did NOT add to this. They erased all this lore with their own space cop iteration. This iteration has completely different lore. They don't operate on Earth at all, since it's such a low level planet. They might show up at times for illegal alien activities, but they are not present otherwise. The suits are obviously entirely different to the ones from Classic, which is weird if they were supposed to be the same organization. These guys are just space cops
You never explained how UAF Plumbers were more meaningful in any way, shape, or form. This is a Vague Argument Fallacy. Just cause you like them more, doesn't mean this is true. All I'm doing is pointing out that this is a shit argument on your part
Just cause they have the same name in both eras does NOT mean they are the same
Basic Critical Thinking lol
Osmosians
Whilst I do admit that it is true that retconning Osmosians out of existence and saying Kevin is a mutant doesn't technically add much to OV's story, I do wanna ask how the fuck does UAF get away with retconning the Classic Plumbers out of existence under the excuse "It provided better story potential"?
Why can't the same be said for Kevin being a mutant? Doesn't that open up not only the human race to have mutant abilities, but also alien allies and antagonists? Isn't that direct story potential right there?
In fact, here's an idea, Kevin being a mutant makes it so that Kevin's powers are more unique to him. Ben is not capable of transforming into him since his abilities don't come from any alien heritage, so he provides a unique role to the team like Gwen would with her magic
What about the idea that Kevin being a Mutant is a better analog due to him being a foil to Ben. In Classic, Ben realized that he didn't want to turn into the type of person Kevin is. With Kevin being a mutant, this is also true literally that he isn't able to. Nice symbolism there, even if it was most likely unintentional. I will definitely admit that!
What about the Plumbers is decharacterised? Them being a secret clandestine group of alien fighters on Earth doesn't contradict the galactic plumbers across the universe at all, it just tells us that they operated differently on places other than Earth.
OV had no reason to change Kevin to being a mutant and removing Osmosians. The story isn't really changed or moved forward in any way. Meanwhile, the changes to the Plumbers in UAF only add to the story and provide more possibilites for expanding the world and story. One of these serves a meaningful purpose for the story whilst the other doesn't do anything.
Hypocrisy and Ignorance at its finest lmao
Let's break it down:
Plumbers
What about them was decharacterized? Oh, I don't know. Perhaps all the lore that was threaded throughout the entirety of the Classic series! We're judging a retcon based on how much it changes, and this fundamentally changes the story
Classic Plumbers were a secret government organization, akin to the Men in Black. We even have examples of some of them being xenophobic.. In fact, the Plumbers had been defunct in Classic and practically replaced with SECT, so add 'Framed' to the list of episodes that UAF retconned. Plumbers were highly secretive, and did everything under the table
UAF did NOT add to this. They erased all this lore with their own space cop iteration. This iteration has completely different lore. They don't operate on Earth at all, since it's such a low level planet. They might show up at times for illegal alien activities, but they are not present otherwise. The suits are obviously entirely different to the ones from Classic, which is weird if they were supposed to be the same organization. These guys are just space cops
You never explained how UAF Plumbers were more meaningful in any way, shape, or form. This is a Vague Argument Fallacy. Just cause you like them more, doesn't mean this is true. All I'm doing is pointing out that this is a shit argument on your part
Just cause they have the same name in both eras does NOT mean they are the same
Basic Critical Thinking lol
Osmosians
Whilst I do admit that it is true that retconning Osmosians out of existence and saying Kevin is a mutant doesn't technically add much to OV's story, I do wanna ask how the fuck does UAF get away with retconning the Classic Plumbers out of existence under the excuse "It provided better story potential"?
Why can't the same be said for Kevin being a mutant? Doesn't that open up not only the human race to have mutant abilities, but also alien allies and antagonists? Isn't that direct story potential right there?
In fact, here's an idea, Kevin being a mutant makes it so that Kevin's powers are more unique to him. Ben is not capable of transforming into him since his abilities don't come from any alien heritage, so he provides a unique role to the team like Gwen would with her magic
What about the idea that Kevin being a Mutant is a better analog due to him being a foil to Ben. In Classic, Ben realized that he didn't want to turn into the type of person Kevin is. With Kevin being a mutant, this is also true literally that he isn't able to. Nice symbolism there, even if it was most likely unintentional. I will definitely admit that!
3/24/2024 c2 shriramasokan
What about the Plumbers is decharacterised? Them being a secret clandestine group of alien fighters on Earth doesn't contradict the galactic plumbers across the universe at all, it just tells us that they operated differently on places other than Earth.
There's also the obvious issue with all the UAF versus OV retcons - OV had no reason to change Kevin to being a mutant and removing Osmosians. The story isn't really changed or moved forward in any way. Meanwhile, the changes to the Plumbers in UAF only add to the story and provide more possibilites for expanding the world and story. One of these serves a meaningful purpose for the story whilst the other doesn't do anything.
What about the Plumbers is decharacterised? Them being a secret clandestine group of alien fighters on Earth doesn't contradict the galactic plumbers across the universe at all, it just tells us that they operated differently on places other than Earth.
There's also the obvious issue with all the UAF versus OV retcons - OV had no reason to change Kevin to being a mutant and removing Osmosians. The story isn't really changed or moved forward in any way. Meanwhile, the changes to the Plumbers in UAF only add to the story and provide more possibilites for expanding the world and story. One of these serves a meaningful purpose for the story whilst the other doesn't do anything.