for Beginning a New Path8/20/2021 c9 Guest
wtf is with this chapter and why is there suddenly random swinging and partner sharing? Gross ...
wtf is with this chapter and why is there suddenly random swinging and partner sharing? Gross ...
8/15/2021 c7 Guest
I'd have much preferred it if Xander was left behind. He doesn't actually DO anything, he's just there hanging around being useless character bloat.
I'd have much preferred it if Xander was left behind. He doesn't actually DO anything, he's just there hanging around being useless character bloat.
7/26/2021 c1 Guest
The asking out buffy dialogue is super cringy and forced lol
The asking out buffy dialogue is super cringy and forced lol
7/8/2021 c114 Iamleath
I have downloaded the fictional from the facebook group, but it ends with voyager, I am unable to locate an updated set of chapters. Would you please add the chapters written after st:voyager to the group files?
I have downloaded the fictional from the facebook group, but it ends with voyager, I am unable to locate an updated set of chapters. Would you please add the chapters written after st:voyager to the group files?
5/22/2021 c114 Moral Conundrum
You used the live action remake. WHY did you use the live action remake? WHY IN THE WORLD would ANYONE want to use the live action remake!?
You chose... poorly.
You used the live action remake. WHY did you use the live action remake? WHY IN THE WORLD would ANYONE want to use the live action remake!?
You chose... poorly.
4/10/2021 c114 Guest
funny how youve been writing for 10 years yet every single story since has been as dogshit as your first one
funny how youve been writing for 10 years yet every single story since has been as dogshit as your first one
4/6/2021 c1 
1aPancake
Seen this story updated for years, and I'm going to take my first crack at it. Good vibes going into it.
1aPancakeSeen this story updated for years, and I'm going to take my first crack at it. Good vibes going into it.
4/4/2021 c19 Guest
When they swear by the Styx even the gods must keep their word
Like humans the Olympians were capable of good and bad deeds
But it could be argued their immortality and massive power (and the same could be said of superheroes) disconnects them from humanity
if a man was caught peeping on a bathing goddess she might blind him reflexively on instinct but if it was an accident she may then give him the gift of prophesy
To those who worshiped them remember they are from a far more brutal time where thinking the next village over as subhuman was par for the course
In actual mythology
The Olympians were like humans in that they ran the gamut from bad to good to indifferent to somewhere in between it could be said their immortality and massive power disconnects them from humanity
The Olympians were very much do as we say not as we do types, Zeus was a freaking rapist but he was also god of law, justice, and civilization in general and he DOES punish the truly vile, even if he has hypocrisy issues (liars, oath breaker, incest), one could argue that gods should ONLY interfere with the most horrible taboo breakers and/or extreme circumstances
Athena as a goddess of intelligence, she will help people as long as they are following the rules and/or striving to right injustice. But breaking them means she will allow no mercy, she punished her own high priestess Medusa for losing her virginity to Poseidon. Regardless of whether it was rape or consensual, Medusa's vow had been broken, and there had to be a punishment.
Ares in his Roman incarnation he is pictured as the god of farming as well as war. The connection being that war was in the mind of early Romans(and early Greeks) turf fighting between farmers. Thus in the Roman interpretation Mars was a god of citizen-soldiers defending their crops, and the Greek Ares was a god of the horrors of war. Ares always supported his children and tried to protect them (namely the Amazons) Yes, he goes on bloodthirsty killing sprees during wartime (he's basically a stupid thug even if he does know everything about armed and unarmed combat Ares personifies war as bloodshed, violence and destruction, and Athena is the goddess of generals, battle tactics and strategies) but he is quite devoted to his mother He loved Hera, as he saved her from getting raped by two giants at the cost of being imprisoned in a jar, and various children unlike a lot of the other gods except Hermes Athenians explained the name of the Areopagus by saying the first trial there was when Poseidon prosecuted Ares for murder, over the death of his son Alirrothios. Ares was acquitted on the defense that he was protecting his daughter Alkippe from being raped by Alirrothios
Orion at least tries to be god of JUST war violence only when necessary
Kidnapping seducing your future wife was just something done it those times or at least if the gods did it it's okay (they were very much do as we say not as we do types like everyone capable of good and bad deeds were good bad and somewhere in between) their relationship was remarkably functional
Asclepius stole his subjects and he asked Zeus to put an end to it not his fault Zeus decided to set him on fire
Not his fault Orpheus did the one thing he told him NOT to do
Theseus and Pirithous narcissistic as only Greek heroes can be decided they both deserve to marry a daughter of Zeus Theseus chose Helen of Troy twelve at the time and keep her until she's old enough and Pirithous chose Persephone and Hades had snakes fuse them to chairs and sick the Furies on them
Hades loves his wife does his job keeps his word and named his giant three headed hell hound Spot
There are older secular superior moral codes and laws
Why do so many have such low standards for a deity poverty, disease, disaster, not eating all the junk food you want and look like an action figure post scarcity for all mankind who wants it (those who want their own lives to be hard and difficult and dangerous have no right to force that on anyone else) can't talk to everyone at once it was someone who said someone from their congregation said some priest said some prophet said some god wants or doesn't want something
Compassion for the sake of compassion
If the values of charity, mercy, honor, duty, and justice aren't enough than knowing you are morally superior to a supernatural, abusive, bully, tyrant is worth an eternity of torment would know if groveling were insincere
Pampered or enchained a slave is slave what is worth honor pride and shame
Indoctrinated and brainwashed as a child no logic critical thinking and rational thought no evidence or data that can be observed, measured, and quantified
Rights are for all regardless of color, creed including none, and gender because otherwise they aren't rights just privilege respect the rights of everyone else or you don't have any
Rights are laws which exist to bring prosperity to those under them
There is little besides wishful thinking to suggest that that the universe is ruled by a just and all-powerful God who rewards good and punishes evil. The world is unjust and unfair, so bad things will always happen to good people for no reason at all. indicate that the human condition is that we want reasons for our suffering and create elaborate religious or metaphysical belief systems that get in the way of taking responsibility for our own lives and absolve us of the responsibility of trying to change it. However, there Anti-Nihilist message to the story saying that people can make a difference. There were a lot of bad things people are unable to prevent, but some saved people and changed lives because some had the courage to stand up to villains that no one else would oppose. Even if who recognizes that you're weak and fragile decides that by going home and fighting your own small battle you'll be able to change something.
even the smallest of your actions can have an unpredictable effect on other people, and that progress that you have spent your entire life building can be ruined if you take one reckless action without thinking of the consequences
No man is an island. Even if you think that relying on others will make you vulnerable, and that you're tough enough to take care of yourself, there will always be challenges that are too much to handle without help
"Revenge is nothing but the place where men who can't deal with sadness go." go on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge against in retaliation really left on that rampage because he couldn't bear to face the grief of everything he had lost. Instead, drenched himself in hatred and violence, and while The Power of Hate made him strong for a time, it left him as a wreck of a man and caused the only precious thing he had left to slip through his fingers. Redeem by forgetting revenge and protect instead of Avenge
Religious fanaticism cannot save people or defeat evil, and a dogmatic religion will either be used as a cover for corruption for charlatans manipulate or exploit or lead to the methods of violence, intimidation, and so on. Insane or ignorant/incompetent genuinely believe in misguided delusions lead followers to doom it's okay to believe in the supernatural, but you have to be open minded about it and see the world beyond ours for what it really is instead of what dogma tells you to see.
People can decide to change themselves, no matter who they were before or what they've done in the past. Running away from problems and drenching yourself in revenge and hate, to the point where you almost become as big a monster as the ones you're fighting. But realize how actions have distanced him from someone and put them in mortal danger, drop everything including revenge in order to rescue them before it's too late. From that point on feel the burden of responsibility and is tortured by the lingering consequences of past actions, but those who witness his gradual transformation can attest how much he's changed through sheer willpower and become a far more admirable person. after spending whole life being protected and cared for by others rise to the challenge of being responsible for someone else. Even an evil being who seemingly has no redeeming qualities can do something which—even if it's far too late to make up for their crimes or save them from damnation—can still express their humanity through a last act that will change how people remember them. Cast away humanity and morality long ago, and could have kept on living if he had sacrificed a loved one, but instead consigned to eternal torment out of love for someone else. All of this doesn't change the fact that a lot of characters in the story stick to their evil ways until the very end, and the story focuses heavily on the Freudian Excuse and cruel circumstances that would drive a person to villainy, but there's an implication that whatever the circumstances, doing evil is always on some level a real choice.
There could be a huge difference between what God is and what people want or believe Him to be.
Everything you do has an effect on you or your surroundings. Everything.
Fighting destiny is all well and good, but even a Determinator isn't assured to win in the end. It can go either way. Fate isn't always victorious but neither is willpower, no matter how strong.
There is no external reward for good actions. The only reason to do the right thing is because you choose to. Do not expect the universe to give you a pat on the head, or even refrain from kicking your ass. Likewise, there is no external punishment for wrong actions. The only reason not to screw your neighbor in the most horrific way possible is because you choose not to. (Interestingly, The Bible expressed much the same sentiment in Matthew, often quoted as "the sun shines on the righteous and unrighteous alike.")
Humanity is responsible for its own suffering
You are welcome to live and die by whatever ideals you want but you can't force others to or infringe on another's health or wealth or argue against facts of science and history
Two wolves a lamb voting on whether the wolves eat the lamb is not democracy or equality it's tyranny of the masses
"I have told this to few people, gentlemen, and I suspect I never will again, but one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. A very endearing sight, I’m sure you will agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged on to a half-submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that’s when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."
— Lord Vetinari, Unseen Academicals
"Compassion? Empathy towards species outside your own? Ethics? Morals? Laws? Those are things CIVILIZATION invented! You ponies brought them into being when you decided 'I will care about more than whether I live and reproduce.' You decided some things were greater then your own life! You decided some things were greater than passing off GENETIC legacies. You learned what love was when Celestia taught you how to care about something other than your DNA. The natural world? When did you last see parasprites and cockatrices have political debates? Nature's balance doesn't TOLERATE kindness Flutter-girl. The sick and hurt you care for? You go AGAINST nature's will when you step in and tend to them and heal them. They're SUPPOSED to die to make way for the superior survivors. But because you have an empathy sphere larger than the sun, you step in, you CHEAT Fluttershy, you break Darwin The Dragon's law and allow the 'weak' to thrive not making room for the 'strong.' Kindness goes AGAINST nature Fluttershy! You're as unnatural as me."
— Fluttercruel, Pony POV Series
This is maybe 30 wasps against 30,000 bees and the 30,000 bees do not stand a chance.
Behold the hornets systematically seize them with huge, wicked jaws and literally f*ing cut them apart, one by one by one by f*ing one. In three hours, there are piles of limbs and heads and just fucking bits of things that could possibly have been alive at one point, and the hornets have stormed the hive and flown away with all the bee's children. Who will then be eaten.
Nature is f*ing hardcore
—"The 5 Most Horrifying Bugs in the World"
Cracked
Selesnya thinks nature is a pretty plaything. True nature would rip their faces off and wear their skins as trophies.
—Disciple of the Old Ways
Magic: The Gathering
The Witch of Life is said to be a goddess of nature, adaptation, and natural cycles. She presides over her namesake in all its manifestations. She is a god of love, in a way, but not a god of mercy.
If she loves the deer as she would her own child, then the wolf which tears at its flesh is her child as well. Smallpox was her child, and the furor with which humankind fought and destroyed it was a part of the natural world as well, and she smiled upon the both of them and pronounced it all good.
— Guide to the Zodiac
a Homestuck fic
"It is because Nature is ruthless, hideous, and cruel beyond belief that it was necessary to invent civilisation. One thinks of wild animals as savage, but the fiercest of them begins to look almost domesticated when one considers the viciousness required of a survivor in the sea; as for the insects, their lives are sustained only by intricate processes of fantastic horror. There is no conception more fallacious than the sense of cosiness implied by 'Mother Nature.' Each species must strive to survive, and that will do, by every means in its power, however foul—unless the instinct to survive is weakened by conflict with another instinct."
— Gordon Zellaby, The Midwich Cuckoos
The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.
— Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden
Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law?
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed?
Alfred Tennyson, In Memoriam A. H. H.
"In sober truth, nearly all the things which men are hanged or imprisoned for doing to one another are nature's every-day performances. Killing, the most criminal act recognised by human laws, Nature does once to every being that lives; and, in a large proportion of cases, after protracted tortures such as only the greatest monsters whom we read of ever purposely inflicted on their living fellow creatures."
John Stuart Mill, On Nature
"And what haunts me, is that in all the faces of all the bears that Treadwell ever filmed, I discover no kinship, no understanding, no mercy. I see only the overwhelming indifference of nature. To me, there is no such thing as a secret world of the bears. And this blank stare speaks only of a half-bored interest in food."
— Werner Herzog, Grizzly Man
"Nature here is vile and base. I wouldn't see anything erotical here. I would see fornication and asphyxiation and choking and fighting for survival and growing and just rotting away. Of course, there's a lot of misery. But it is the same misery that is all around us. The trees here are in misery, and the birds are in misery. I don't think they sing, they just screech in pain."
— Werner Herzog, Burden of Dreams
You think civilization is some horrible, polluting human invention that separates us from the state of nature. But civilization doesn't separate us from nature, Ted. Civilization protects us from nature. Because what you see right now, all around you -(referring to a tribe of cannibals)- this is nature.
— Kenner, State of Fear
I just don't understand this idea that nature is some entity that wants all of us to live long and prosper but humans are corrupting and perverting it into this horrible abomination that we have these days. It's so incredibly sad. Every day you walk outside and you're not mauled by an animal? That is you defying nature's course. Every day a baby is born without polio, that is you slapping nature in the face."
—Cr1TiKaL
When they swear by the Styx even the gods must keep their word
Like humans the Olympians were capable of good and bad deeds
But it could be argued their immortality and massive power (and the same could be said of superheroes) disconnects them from humanity
if a man was caught peeping on a bathing goddess she might blind him reflexively on instinct but if it was an accident she may then give him the gift of prophesy
To those who worshiped them remember they are from a far more brutal time where thinking the next village over as subhuman was par for the course
In actual mythology
The Olympians were like humans in that they ran the gamut from bad to good to indifferent to somewhere in between it could be said their immortality and massive power disconnects them from humanity
The Olympians were very much do as we say not as we do types, Zeus was a freaking rapist but he was also god of law, justice, and civilization in general and he DOES punish the truly vile, even if he has hypocrisy issues (liars, oath breaker, incest), one could argue that gods should ONLY interfere with the most horrible taboo breakers and/or extreme circumstances
Athena as a goddess of intelligence, she will help people as long as they are following the rules and/or striving to right injustice. But breaking them means she will allow no mercy, she punished her own high priestess Medusa for losing her virginity to Poseidon. Regardless of whether it was rape or consensual, Medusa's vow had been broken, and there had to be a punishment.
Ares in his Roman incarnation he is pictured as the god of farming as well as war. The connection being that war was in the mind of early Romans(and early Greeks) turf fighting between farmers. Thus in the Roman interpretation Mars was a god of citizen-soldiers defending their crops, and the Greek Ares was a god of the horrors of war. Ares always supported his children and tried to protect them (namely the Amazons) Yes, he goes on bloodthirsty killing sprees during wartime (he's basically a stupid thug even if he does know everything about armed and unarmed combat Ares personifies war as bloodshed, violence and destruction, and Athena is the goddess of generals, battle tactics and strategies) but he is quite devoted to his mother He loved Hera, as he saved her from getting raped by two giants at the cost of being imprisoned in a jar, and various children unlike a lot of the other gods except Hermes Athenians explained the name of the Areopagus by saying the first trial there was when Poseidon prosecuted Ares for murder, over the death of his son Alirrothios. Ares was acquitted on the defense that he was protecting his daughter Alkippe from being raped by Alirrothios
Orion at least tries to be god of JUST war violence only when necessary
Kidnapping seducing your future wife was just something done it those times or at least if the gods did it it's okay (they were very much do as we say not as we do types like everyone capable of good and bad deeds were good bad and somewhere in between) their relationship was remarkably functional
Asclepius stole his subjects and he asked Zeus to put an end to it not his fault Zeus decided to set him on fire
Not his fault Orpheus did the one thing he told him NOT to do
Theseus and Pirithous narcissistic as only Greek heroes can be decided they both deserve to marry a daughter of Zeus Theseus chose Helen of Troy twelve at the time and keep her until she's old enough and Pirithous chose Persephone and Hades had snakes fuse them to chairs and sick the Furies on them
Hades loves his wife does his job keeps his word and named his giant three headed hell hound Spot
There are older secular superior moral codes and laws
Why do so many have such low standards for a deity poverty, disease, disaster, not eating all the junk food you want and look like an action figure post scarcity for all mankind who wants it (those who want their own lives to be hard and difficult and dangerous have no right to force that on anyone else) can't talk to everyone at once it was someone who said someone from their congregation said some priest said some prophet said some god wants or doesn't want something
Compassion for the sake of compassion
If the values of charity, mercy, honor, duty, and justice aren't enough than knowing you are morally superior to a supernatural, abusive, bully, tyrant is worth an eternity of torment would know if groveling were insincere
Pampered or enchained a slave is slave what is worth honor pride and shame
Indoctrinated and brainwashed as a child no logic critical thinking and rational thought no evidence or data that can be observed, measured, and quantified
Rights are for all regardless of color, creed including none, and gender because otherwise they aren't rights just privilege respect the rights of everyone else or you don't have any
Rights are laws which exist to bring prosperity to those under them
There is little besides wishful thinking to suggest that that the universe is ruled by a just and all-powerful God who rewards good and punishes evil. The world is unjust and unfair, so bad things will always happen to good people for no reason at all. indicate that the human condition is that we want reasons for our suffering and create elaborate religious or metaphysical belief systems that get in the way of taking responsibility for our own lives and absolve us of the responsibility of trying to change it. However, there Anti-Nihilist message to the story saying that people can make a difference. There were a lot of bad things people are unable to prevent, but some saved people and changed lives because some had the courage to stand up to villains that no one else would oppose. Even if who recognizes that you're weak and fragile decides that by going home and fighting your own small battle you'll be able to change something.
even the smallest of your actions can have an unpredictable effect on other people, and that progress that you have spent your entire life building can be ruined if you take one reckless action without thinking of the consequences
No man is an island. Even if you think that relying on others will make you vulnerable, and that you're tough enough to take care of yourself, there will always be challenges that are too much to handle without help
"Revenge is nothing but the place where men who can't deal with sadness go." go on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge against in retaliation really left on that rampage because he couldn't bear to face the grief of everything he had lost. Instead, drenched himself in hatred and violence, and while The Power of Hate made him strong for a time, it left him as a wreck of a man and caused the only precious thing he had left to slip through his fingers. Redeem by forgetting revenge and protect instead of Avenge
Religious fanaticism cannot save people or defeat evil, and a dogmatic religion will either be used as a cover for corruption for charlatans manipulate or exploit or lead to the methods of violence, intimidation, and so on. Insane or ignorant/incompetent genuinely believe in misguided delusions lead followers to doom it's okay to believe in the supernatural, but you have to be open minded about it and see the world beyond ours for what it really is instead of what dogma tells you to see.
People can decide to change themselves, no matter who they were before or what they've done in the past. Running away from problems and drenching yourself in revenge and hate, to the point where you almost become as big a monster as the ones you're fighting. But realize how actions have distanced him from someone and put them in mortal danger, drop everything including revenge in order to rescue them before it's too late. From that point on feel the burden of responsibility and is tortured by the lingering consequences of past actions, but those who witness his gradual transformation can attest how much he's changed through sheer willpower and become a far more admirable person. after spending whole life being protected and cared for by others rise to the challenge of being responsible for someone else. Even an evil being who seemingly has no redeeming qualities can do something which—even if it's far too late to make up for their crimes or save them from damnation—can still express their humanity through a last act that will change how people remember them. Cast away humanity and morality long ago, and could have kept on living if he had sacrificed a loved one, but instead consigned to eternal torment out of love for someone else. All of this doesn't change the fact that a lot of characters in the story stick to their evil ways until the very end, and the story focuses heavily on the Freudian Excuse and cruel circumstances that would drive a person to villainy, but there's an implication that whatever the circumstances, doing evil is always on some level a real choice.
There could be a huge difference between what God is and what people want or believe Him to be.
Everything you do has an effect on you or your surroundings. Everything.
Fighting destiny is all well and good, but even a Determinator isn't assured to win in the end. It can go either way. Fate isn't always victorious but neither is willpower, no matter how strong.
There is no external reward for good actions. The only reason to do the right thing is because you choose to. Do not expect the universe to give you a pat on the head, or even refrain from kicking your ass. Likewise, there is no external punishment for wrong actions. The only reason not to screw your neighbor in the most horrific way possible is because you choose not to. (Interestingly, The Bible expressed much the same sentiment in Matthew, often quoted as "the sun shines on the righteous and unrighteous alike.")
Humanity is responsible for its own suffering
You are welcome to live and die by whatever ideals you want but you can't force others to or infringe on another's health or wealth or argue against facts of science and history
Two wolves a lamb voting on whether the wolves eat the lamb is not democracy or equality it's tyranny of the masses
"I have told this to few people, gentlemen, and I suspect I never will again, but one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. A very endearing sight, I’m sure you will agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged on to a half-submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that’s when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."
— Lord Vetinari, Unseen Academicals
"Compassion? Empathy towards species outside your own? Ethics? Morals? Laws? Those are things CIVILIZATION invented! You ponies brought them into being when you decided 'I will care about more than whether I live and reproduce.' You decided some things were greater then your own life! You decided some things were greater than passing off GENETIC legacies. You learned what love was when Celestia taught you how to care about something other than your DNA. The natural world? When did you last see parasprites and cockatrices have political debates? Nature's balance doesn't TOLERATE kindness Flutter-girl. The sick and hurt you care for? You go AGAINST nature's will when you step in and tend to them and heal them. They're SUPPOSED to die to make way for the superior survivors. But because you have an empathy sphere larger than the sun, you step in, you CHEAT Fluttershy, you break Darwin The Dragon's law and allow the 'weak' to thrive not making room for the 'strong.' Kindness goes AGAINST nature Fluttershy! You're as unnatural as me."
— Fluttercruel, Pony POV Series
This is maybe 30 wasps against 30,000 bees and the 30,000 bees do not stand a chance.
Behold the hornets systematically seize them with huge, wicked jaws and literally f*ing cut them apart, one by one by one by f*ing one. In three hours, there are piles of limbs and heads and just fucking bits of things that could possibly have been alive at one point, and the hornets have stormed the hive and flown away with all the bee's children. Who will then be eaten.
Nature is f*ing hardcore
—"The 5 Most Horrifying Bugs in the World"
Cracked
Selesnya thinks nature is a pretty plaything. True nature would rip their faces off and wear their skins as trophies.
—Disciple of the Old Ways
Magic: The Gathering
The Witch of Life is said to be a goddess of nature, adaptation, and natural cycles. She presides over her namesake in all its manifestations. She is a god of love, in a way, but not a god of mercy.
If she loves the deer as she would her own child, then the wolf which tears at its flesh is her child as well. Smallpox was her child, and the furor with which humankind fought and destroyed it was a part of the natural world as well, and she smiled upon the both of them and pronounced it all good.
— Guide to the Zodiac
a Homestuck fic
"It is because Nature is ruthless, hideous, and cruel beyond belief that it was necessary to invent civilisation. One thinks of wild animals as savage, but the fiercest of them begins to look almost domesticated when one considers the viciousness required of a survivor in the sea; as for the insects, their lives are sustained only by intricate processes of fantastic horror. There is no conception more fallacious than the sense of cosiness implied by 'Mother Nature.' Each species must strive to survive, and that will do, by every means in its power, however foul—unless the instinct to survive is weakened by conflict with another instinct."
— Gordon Zellaby, The Midwich Cuckoos
The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.
— Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden
Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law?
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed?
Alfred Tennyson, In Memoriam A. H. H.
"In sober truth, nearly all the things which men are hanged or imprisoned for doing to one another are nature's every-day performances. Killing, the most criminal act recognised by human laws, Nature does once to every being that lives; and, in a large proportion of cases, after protracted tortures such as only the greatest monsters whom we read of ever purposely inflicted on their living fellow creatures."
John Stuart Mill, On Nature
"And what haunts me, is that in all the faces of all the bears that Treadwell ever filmed, I discover no kinship, no understanding, no mercy. I see only the overwhelming indifference of nature. To me, there is no such thing as a secret world of the bears. And this blank stare speaks only of a half-bored interest in food."
— Werner Herzog, Grizzly Man
"Nature here is vile and base. I wouldn't see anything erotical here. I would see fornication and asphyxiation and choking and fighting for survival and growing and just rotting away. Of course, there's a lot of misery. But it is the same misery that is all around us. The trees here are in misery, and the birds are in misery. I don't think they sing, they just screech in pain."
— Werner Herzog, Burden of Dreams
You think civilization is some horrible, polluting human invention that separates us from the state of nature. But civilization doesn't separate us from nature, Ted. Civilization protects us from nature. Because what you see right now, all around you -(referring to a tribe of cannibals)- this is nature.
— Kenner, State of Fear
I just don't understand this idea that nature is some entity that wants all of us to live long and prosper but humans are corrupting and perverting it into this horrible abomination that we have these days. It's so incredibly sad. Every day you walk outside and you're not mauled by an animal? That is you defying nature's course. Every day a baby is born without polio, that is you slapping nature in the face."
—Cr1TiKaL
4/4/2021 c18 Guest
If the Phoenix didn't get Hope why wouldn't it just burn the Earth to ashes, it's been doing that across the universe
Hope spent her entire life being hunted and told she must survive to save mutantkind
Did they ever say if Hope was influencing people on purpose or if she was it was for the survival of mutantkind
Scott's apparent goal actually fairly simple: Protect the new emerging mutants and make up for killing Xavier. Uncanny X-Men, basically, comes down to him and his team finding new mutants who's powers are emerging, bursting in big-damn-heroes style, defend them from any violent trigger-happy police officers, then get the kid out of there. For some reason though they keep calling it a 'revolution', which seems to be why everyone's so scared he's going to mess things up for everyone, but he's not actually done anything 'revolutionary'. Hell, last issue of Consequences had him outright say what they're doing is nothing new.
It was Wolverine who kept X-Force going when Scott felt it was no longer necessary
what really, really bugs me about Jason Aaron's writing is that he always does the whole 'Cyclops vs Wolverine' argument thing, and when he does, he actually gives Cyclops a lot of good arguments and generally makes him the most agreeable character in the situation, but then it’s clear from how he writes it is that we're not supposed to agree with him. Especially since we're supposed to agree with Wolverine, and all his arguments are utter BS. I mean...
-"It sure looked like you." And it sure looked like YOU, Logan, all the times you've killed innocent people or tried to kill innocents while possessed. Hell, he cut off a guy's arm because he got pissed at him, not to mention all the times he tried to kill innocent or mostly innocent people 'for the greater good' or whatever, as noted before.
-"You killed one and teamed up with the other." 'The other' who surrendered and asked to join their side, before saving Kitty from her space bullet. Magneto has done terrible, terrible things. So have you Logan. He wants to make up for those terrible things. Just like you Logan. Stop judging him, and judging Cyke for giving him the chance to. You didn't have much problem with him doing that when you were on his side. It still bugs me how everyone keeps judging Cyke because he gave Magneto another chance to do good.
-"Jean knew who she was and what she'd done." After the original Dark Phoenix saga, the first time they saw Jean after that mess they accepted her with open arms. When she was going crazy, they tried to calm her down. Wolverine's first response to seeing Cyclops start going Dark Phoenix was to just kill him, and the Avengers and other X-Men let him. Jean also felt bad for what she did, as does Cyclops here, but Jean (or the Phoenix copy of her) killed billions of innocent sentient beings while Cyke killed one fairly douchey man with a lot of douchey secrets, and while they still all love Xavier, that doesn't change the fact that they're holding Cyke to a very unfair double standard. Sure, he's not the 'sweet innocent soul' Jean was, and he's done a lot of bad things himself, but that still doesn't mean he deserves to be held accountable for every last bad thing he did while possessed by a cosmic entity he was not supposed to control.
-"you put your people on a path to war." ...No, no he didn't. The world around him did. Mutants were reduced to less than a hundred in their numbers, they had genocidal mad-men gunning for them at every side, every day they faced extinction, to the point that when he only lost ONE teammate, he could call that day a good one since he didn't lose more. They were in the $#!tter, and like it or not, they had to take off the kiddy gloves and strike back or die horribly. Despite all these things coming at them though, Cyke held the group together and took down what was coming at them; his actions weren't pretty, but he kept them alive. Be grateful, you self-righteous sack of $#!t.
-"I know I made my own mistakes, but I'm trying to do good." So, it’s OK for you to seek redemption, but while Cyke tries to make up for his mistakes by saving mutants from people who'd hurt them, no, he's gone too far and he needs to pay? Seriously Logan, do you not see why that's so hypocritical? It’s nice you're trying to do good, but instead of being a baby, let Cyke do good with you.
-"When I go down, I go down alone, but when you go down you'll take us all with you." Who, exactly, is currently teaching a school? A proper school, with tons of students? Who is currently the one in charge of the big team of X-Men? Logan, if you 'go down', there's a good chance it'd result in all those kids going down too. Cyke, if he goes down, really, all it'd do is turn him into a martyr since all these in-universe liberal kids love him.
Logan seems to be continently forgetting the bus loads of students that got torched back in the New 'Mutants: Childhood's. No mutant school's an island.
"You don't hate yourself nearly enough." Uh, yes he does. It’s pretty much a character trait that he doesn't think very highly of himself, and since Xavier's death he's pretty much suicidal. Hell, does he not remember that Cyclops wanted him to kill him? You should know more than anyone how much Cyclops hates himself, and frankly, it’s disgusting to tell someone they should hate themselves, especially when you know they have mental issues.
-"These days you're too much like me." How? When Logan did bad things, especially when he killed people, it was usually because he had serious issues controlling his behavior. He sometimes took lives because he felt it was needed, but that's actually fairly rare, and more often than not, it was just because he was feeling fairly violent at the moment. In short, he's an animal. Cyclops, on the other hand, when he did bad things or took lives, it was because he believed that if he didn't, people would die. Given that he ended up being right most of those times, he has a point. Not to mention, this 'Don't be like me, I'm a bad person' BS is, again, incredibly hypocritical thinking. If you're such a bad person to be like, Logan, then why are you head mastering a school? If being 'like you' makes him such a bad fit for leader of the X-Men, why are YOU, of all people, the one currently doing that?
I know, it’s kind of pathetic to basically argue with a fictional character, but it really bugs me that we're supposed to agree with Logan here.
the one thing he would change if he could do it over again would be him dying in Xavier's place.
As for giving up the Phoenix, considering what his teammates did with the power that wouldn't have been a good idea. At the very least Emma and Namor would have done much worse
I'll never buy that Scott wanted to kill Xavier. He has been very angry at him at times. Doesn't mean he'd want him dead.
Colossus put crabs legs on whales. I somehow doubt that was a manifestation of his deepest desires
Asteroid M(s) made of Krakoa- Savageland(s), Danger/Cerebra, (Zero-Techno-organic-Technoarchy, Phalanx like Barbuda Builders
Initially Wolverine was a rebel who often got himself into trouble and had to learn to respect Cyclops' leadership, but as fans of his got promoted into being his writers, and his problems with Cyke grew to the point he's shunned him and taken leadership of the 'real' X-Men team. We're supposed to take Wolverine's side in their arguments, given he usually gets the last word in and he is seen as 'the good guy', despite him instigating most of their arguments, and that had they gone with his idea everything would have been screwed. In Schism, when Cyclops argues they stand and fight while he wants to run away to protect the younger students, he starts a physical fight that wastes time until the Sentinel is there, and he continues the fight while also fighting off the Sentinel, before eventually going with Cyclops' plan, which ends up being the right call. He splits the X-Men, and again we're supposed to agree with him. In Avengers vs. X-Men, the spiritual follow-up, the entire incident could have been avoided had he not bad-mouthed Cyclops to Captain America, and later he suggests the idea of killing Hope (you know, the girl who can repopulate his race?!) to end the Phoenix threat, which later turns out to have been a terrible idea that nobody else supported. Despite that, he ends up on the side of angels while Cyclops is arrested for terrorism.
This hit its peak when, during the Battle of the Atom crossover, Wolverine calls out Cyke for killing Charles Xavier. Never mind that Cyke was possessed by a cosmic force and killed Xavier in self defense, Wolverine kills all the time! Cyclops calls him out on the hypocrisy, pointing out that Cyclops has killed one person, while Wolverine has killed many. How does Wolverine respond? "Nobody I've killed matters." That is a direct quote. Note that at the time, Northstar was on his team, a character who, a few years ago, Wolverine had killed while brainwashed, essentially the same circumstances that Cyclops was under when he killed Xavier. No one points this out.
Jean essentially mind raped Cyke into foaming a relationship with Emma so he would move on after her death. Keep in mind, Emma herself originally mind raped Cyclops into having an affair with her before Jean's death and he never intended on leaving Madelyn he just wanted to meet with Jean not his fault S'ym tricked her and led Cyke to believe she was dead
And the Revolution (and not all are violent) was a bluff
Emma wants good things, safety for her students and mutantkind, she has learned not being a villain is more effective but she still won't put principle over pragmatism, this is WHY she is such an awesome ethics teacher
I'm supporting Cyclops he may not be doing it in the best of ways, and he could benefit from trying to have a sit down with Cap and Logan and trying to get some peace between the three of them, but he's still the only one trying to help the situation. All Logan's lot are doing are telling him he's in the wrong, going on about how bad he is, and how, if they confront him it'll cause a war. They're literally sitting back and letting the world tear apart the new mutants and judging him for trying to stop it.
The thing that bugs me whenever Scott says he gave up/moved on from that, in that he clearly hasn't. He spent a considerable amount of time while in San Fran building bridges between humans and mutants (during the time when he was most criticized for putting peace to the back burner), and even today, Scott's motivations for everything is to stop humans picking on mutants. That's petty much one of the main things Xavier taught him to do. He's not actively trying to antagonize humans or start a war or preaching mutant supremacy, if anything, is actions could lead to his team preventing it.
He knew that letting the Avengers take Hope away would cause the world to become a nuclear wasteland in the future from future Cable (who Marvel has treated as Jesus for decades)
"His public persona is almost at t-shirt level. He’s like a Che Guevara kind of image for college students. And they go, “Scott Summers is trying to feed the poor and clean the water and do all this cool stuff as Phoenix,” and they don’t know what happened. They just know that “The Man” kind of shut him down. So they look at him and he’s on the cover of "Rolling Stone," so there’s this image of Scott Summers that he’s trying to live up to while he’s dealing with all his demons and all the misunderstanding and hatred that he has from the other mutants."
It was Stark on Captain America's order who got the Phoenix in them in the first place
Scott wasn't trying to hurt anyone at that point. He was honestly trying to help, and he did do some things that were noble, such as stabilizing climates and providing food for starving countries. The two seem more bothered that its Scott's got all this power, rather than what he's doing with it.
Scott did, however, turn crazy evil, but not until after the Avengers did some pretty dickheadish things to piss him off. Its hard to blame someone for losing control or turning into the Dark Phoenix when the 'heroes' are so obsessed with the fact he might turn evil or go mad with power that they do everything they can to make him angry
the Avengers are adults too who are capable of voicing their concerns and such by means other than 'attack-attack-assemble', and are more than capable of trying peaceful solutions.
However, what should be stressed is that, none of the Phoenix Five were mentally sane, before or after it bonded to them. The Phoenix is a power that requires the host be completely in control of themselves. Magik is crazy, Namor is bipolar, Emma is prone to bouts of self loathing and guilt, Piotr was currently demonically possessed, and Cyclops is, well, he requires a list:
He's completely incapable of expressing emotion in a healthy, adult manner, he's also prone to self loathing, he blames himself for all the tragedies in his life (from Thunderbird's death to the Schism with Logan), he was possessed by Apocalypse and died, came back, was separated, and spent a while afterwards dealing with intense PTSD to which he never actually got proper treatment or counselling for, he's currently got the Void, the entity responsible for Sentry's mental issues, locked up inside his head, he's still obsessed with his first girlfriend, he was abused as a child, he spent his teen years being trained to be a child soldier, and following the death of his wife he's basically left with nothing but being the leader to his team. Scott is literally the last person who should've been given the Phoenix.
The point is, they may be adults, but they're not mentally sane adults, and the Phoenix force does not help that matter. The P5 had the excuse of the Phoenix making them more prone to acting out in a manner that they shouldn't do so. Cap and the Avengers didn't have that excuse, they acted just as childish, idiotic, and antagonistic as they did, and did so without the same mental issues or cosmic fuel to the fire
Scott like Black Panther and Captain America are supposed to be like Marvel’s Batmen, but he doesn’t have the charisma they do or even Magneto and Xavier
There are reasons Sinister is obsessed with Cyclops family genes
Beast killed millions on Cap’s order also
I know Xavier was a loved one and his death hurts more, but it still seems hypocritical to me
Not to mention what happens when the Celestials come back the Mutants aren't there I think they'd effortlessly destroy the world after effortlessly defeating every superhero and every single god in every single pantheon
Balance it with the countless more lives the Phoenix has saved, it is a fundamental force of the universe, life incarnate, sometimes you need a forest fire so new life, future generations (which is all that really matters) to thrive, sometimes nature must be ruthless and brutal
Rachel Summers... the last human host of the Phoenix Force, who wielded the power for years as a hero and never once went as out of control as The Avengers have talked about. You'd think someone, like say Wolverine, who is an Avenger and knew both Rachel and Jean Grey, would mention this. Nope. You'd think the X-Men — many of whom, like Logan, were teammates with both Phoenixes — would mention this or the fact that Jean didn't really go crazy until her mind was mucked with by Mastermind? Again, nope. Rachel herself? Again. No
Mutatis mutandis roughly having changed the things that needed to be changed
If the Phoenix didn't get Hope why wouldn't it just burn the Earth to ashes, it's been doing that across the universe
Hope spent her entire life being hunted and told she must survive to save mutantkind
Did they ever say if Hope was influencing people on purpose or if she was it was for the survival of mutantkind
Scott's apparent goal actually fairly simple: Protect the new emerging mutants and make up for killing Xavier. Uncanny X-Men, basically, comes down to him and his team finding new mutants who's powers are emerging, bursting in big-damn-heroes style, defend them from any violent trigger-happy police officers, then get the kid out of there. For some reason though they keep calling it a 'revolution', which seems to be why everyone's so scared he's going to mess things up for everyone, but he's not actually done anything 'revolutionary'. Hell, last issue of Consequences had him outright say what they're doing is nothing new.
It was Wolverine who kept X-Force going when Scott felt it was no longer necessary
what really, really bugs me about Jason Aaron's writing is that he always does the whole 'Cyclops vs Wolverine' argument thing, and when he does, he actually gives Cyclops a lot of good arguments and generally makes him the most agreeable character in the situation, but then it’s clear from how he writes it is that we're not supposed to agree with him. Especially since we're supposed to agree with Wolverine, and all his arguments are utter BS. I mean...
-"It sure looked like you." And it sure looked like YOU, Logan, all the times you've killed innocent people or tried to kill innocents while possessed. Hell, he cut off a guy's arm because he got pissed at him, not to mention all the times he tried to kill innocent or mostly innocent people 'for the greater good' or whatever, as noted before.
-"You killed one and teamed up with the other." 'The other' who surrendered and asked to join their side, before saving Kitty from her space bullet. Magneto has done terrible, terrible things. So have you Logan. He wants to make up for those terrible things. Just like you Logan. Stop judging him, and judging Cyke for giving him the chance to. You didn't have much problem with him doing that when you were on his side. It still bugs me how everyone keeps judging Cyke because he gave Magneto another chance to do good.
-"Jean knew who she was and what she'd done." After the original Dark Phoenix saga, the first time they saw Jean after that mess they accepted her with open arms. When she was going crazy, they tried to calm her down. Wolverine's first response to seeing Cyclops start going Dark Phoenix was to just kill him, and the Avengers and other X-Men let him. Jean also felt bad for what she did, as does Cyclops here, but Jean (or the Phoenix copy of her) killed billions of innocent sentient beings while Cyke killed one fairly douchey man with a lot of douchey secrets, and while they still all love Xavier, that doesn't change the fact that they're holding Cyke to a very unfair double standard. Sure, he's not the 'sweet innocent soul' Jean was, and he's done a lot of bad things himself, but that still doesn't mean he deserves to be held accountable for every last bad thing he did while possessed by a cosmic entity he was not supposed to control.
-"you put your people on a path to war." ...No, no he didn't. The world around him did. Mutants were reduced to less than a hundred in their numbers, they had genocidal mad-men gunning for them at every side, every day they faced extinction, to the point that when he only lost ONE teammate, he could call that day a good one since he didn't lose more. They were in the $#!tter, and like it or not, they had to take off the kiddy gloves and strike back or die horribly. Despite all these things coming at them though, Cyke held the group together and took down what was coming at them; his actions weren't pretty, but he kept them alive. Be grateful, you self-righteous sack of $#!t.
-"I know I made my own mistakes, but I'm trying to do good." So, it’s OK for you to seek redemption, but while Cyke tries to make up for his mistakes by saving mutants from people who'd hurt them, no, he's gone too far and he needs to pay? Seriously Logan, do you not see why that's so hypocritical? It’s nice you're trying to do good, but instead of being a baby, let Cyke do good with you.
-"When I go down, I go down alone, but when you go down you'll take us all with you." Who, exactly, is currently teaching a school? A proper school, with tons of students? Who is currently the one in charge of the big team of X-Men? Logan, if you 'go down', there's a good chance it'd result in all those kids going down too. Cyke, if he goes down, really, all it'd do is turn him into a martyr since all these in-universe liberal kids love him.
Logan seems to be continently forgetting the bus loads of students that got torched back in the New 'Mutants: Childhood's. No mutant school's an island.
"You don't hate yourself nearly enough." Uh, yes he does. It’s pretty much a character trait that he doesn't think very highly of himself, and since Xavier's death he's pretty much suicidal. Hell, does he not remember that Cyclops wanted him to kill him? You should know more than anyone how much Cyclops hates himself, and frankly, it’s disgusting to tell someone they should hate themselves, especially when you know they have mental issues.
-"These days you're too much like me." How? When Logan did bad things, especially when he killed people, it was usually because he had serious issues controlling his behavior. He sometimes took lives because he felt it was needed, but that's actually fairly rare, and more often than not, it was just because he was feeling fairly violent at the moment. In short, he's an animal. Cyclops, on the other hand, when he did bad things or took lives, it was because he believed that if he didn't, people would die. Given that he ended up being right most of those times, he has a point. Not to mention, this 'Don't be like me, I'm a bad person' BS is, again, incredibly hypocritical thinking. If you're such a bad person to be like, Logan, then why are you head mastering a school? If being 'like you' makes him such a bad fit for leader of the X-Men, why are YOU, of all people, the one currently doing that?
I know, it’s kind of pathetic to basically argue with a fictional character, but it really bugs me that we're supposed to agree with Logan here.
the one thing he would change if he could do it over again would be him dying in Xavier's place.
As for giving up the Phoenix, considering what his teammates did with the power that wouldn't have been a good idea. At the very least Emma and Namor would have done much worse
I'll never buy that Scott wanted to kill Xavier. He has been very angry at him at times. Doesn't mean he'd want him dead.
Colossus put crabs legs on whales. I somehow doubt that was a manifestation of his deepest desires
Asteroid M(s) made of Krakoa- Savageland(s), Danger/Cerebra, (Zero-Techno-organic-Technoarchy, Phalanx like Barbuda Builders
Initially Wolverine was a rebel who often got himself into trouble and had to learn to respect Cyclops' leadership, but as fans of his got promoted into being his writers, and his problems with Cyke grew to the point he's shunned him and taken leadership of the 'real' X-Men team. We're supposed to take Wolverine's side in their arguments, given he usually gets the last word in and he is seen as 'the good guy', despite him instigating most of their arguments, and that had they gone with his idea everything would have been screwed. In Schism, when Cyclops argues they stand and fight while he wants to run away to protect the younger students, he starts a physical fight that wastes time until the Sentinel is there, and he continues the fight while also fighting off the Sentinel, before eventually going with Cyclops' plan, which ends up being the right call. He splits the X-Men, and again we're supposed to agree with him. In Avengers vs. X-Men, the spiritual follow-up, the entire incident could have been avoided had he not bad-mouthed Cyclops to Captain America, and later he suggests the idea of killing Hope (you know, the girl who can repopulate his race?!) to end the Phoenix threat, which later turns out to have been a terrible idea that nobody else supported. Despite that, he ends up on the side of angels while Cyclops is arrested for terrorism.
This hit its peak when, during the Battle of the Atom crossover, Wolverine calls out Cyke for killing Charles Xavier. Never mind that Cyke was possessed by a cosmic force and killed Xavier in self defense, Wolverine kills all the time! Cyclops calls him out on the hypocrisy, pointing out that Cyclops has killed one person, while Wolverine has killed many. How does Wolverine respond? "Nobody I've killed matters." That is a direct quote. Note that at the time, Northstar was on his team, a character who, a few years ago, Wolverine had killed while brainwashed, essentially the same circumstances that Cyclops was under when he killed Xavier. No one points this out.
Jean essentially mind raped Cyke into foaming a relationship with Emma so he would move on after her death. Keep in mind, Emma herself originally mind raped Cyclops into having an affair with her before Jean's death and he never intended on leaving Madelyn he just wanted to meet with Jean not his fault S'ym tricked her and led Cyke to believe she was dead
And the Revolution (and not all are violent) was a bluff
Emma wants good things, safety for her students and mutantkind, she has learned not being a villain is more effective but she still won't put principle over pragmatism, this is WHY she is such an awesome ethics teacher
I'm supporting Cyclops he may not be doing it in the best of ways, and he could benefit from trying to have a sit down with Cap and Logan and trying to get some peace between the three of them, but he's still the only one trying to help the situation. All Logan's lot are doing are telling him he's in the wrong, going on about how bad he is, and how, if they confront him it'll cause a war. They're literally sitting back and letting the world tear apart the new mutants and judging him for trying to stop it.
The thing that bugs me whenever Scott says he gave up/moved on from that, in that he clearly hasn't. He spent a considerable amount of time while in San Fran building bridges between humans and mutants (during the time when he was most criticized for putting peace to the back burner), and even today, Scott's motivations for everything is to stop humans picking on mutants. That's petty much one of the main things Xavier taught him to do. He's not actively trying to antagonize humans or start a war or preaching mutant supremacy, if anything, is actions could lead to his team preventing it.
He knew that letting the Avengers take Hope away would cause the world to become a nuclear wasteland in the future from future Cable (who Marvel has treated as Jesus for decades)
"His public persona is almost at t-shirt level. He’s like a Che Guevara kind of image for college students. And they go, “Scott Summers is trying to feed the poor and clean the water and do all this cool stuff as Phoenix,” and they don’t know what happened. They just know that “The Man” kind of shut him down. So they look at him and he’s on the cover of "Rolling Stone," so there’s this image of Scott Summers that he’s trying to live up to while he’s dealing with all his demons and all the misunderstanding and hatred that he has from the other mutants."
It was Stark on Captain America's order who got the Phoenix in them in the first place
Scott wasn't trying to hurt anyone at that point. He was honestly trying to help, and he did do some things that were noble, such as stabilizing climates and providing food for starving countries. The two seem more bothered that its Scott's got all this power, rather than what he's doing with it.
Scott did, however, turn crazy evil, but not until after the Avengers did some pretty dickheadish things to piss him off. Its hard to blame someone for losing control or turning into the Dark Phoenix when the 'heroes' are so obsessed with the fact he might turn evil or go mad with power that they do everything they can to make him angry
the Avengers are adults too who are capable of voicing their concerns and such by means other than 'attack-attack-assemble', and are more than capable of trying peaceful solutions.
However, what should be stressed is that, none of the Phoenix Five were mentally sane, before or after it bonded to them. The Phoenix is a power that requires the host be completely in control of themselves. Magik is crazy, Namor is bipolar, Emma is prone to bouts of self loathing and guilt, Piotr was currently demonically possessed, and Cyclops is, well, he requires a list:
He's completely incapable of expressing emotion in a healthy, adult manner, he's also prone to self loathing, he blames himself for all the tragedies in his life (from Thunderbird's death to the Schism with Logan), he was possessed by Apocalypse and died, came back, was separated, and spent a while afterwards dealing with intense PTSD to which he never actually got proper treatment or counselling for, he's currently got the Void, the entity responsible for Sentry's mental issues, locked up inside his head, he's still obsessed with his first girlfriend, he was abused as a child, he spent his teen years being trained to be a child soldier, and following the death of his wife he's basically left with nothing but being the leader to his team. Scott is literally the last person who should've been given the Phoenix.
The point is, they may be adults, but they're not mentally sane adults, and the Phoenix force does not help that matter. The P5 had the excuse of the Phoenix making them more prone to acting out in a manner that they shouldn't do so. Cap and the Avengers didn't have that excuse, they acted just as childish, idiotic, and antagonistic as they did, and did so without the same mental issues or cosmic fuel to the fire
Scott like Black Panther and Captain America are supposed to be like Marvel’s Batmen, but he doesn’t have the charisma they do or even Magneto and Xavier
There are reasons Sinister is obsessed with Cyclops family genes
Beast killed millions on Cap’s order also
I know Xavier was a loved one and his death hurts more, but it still seems hypocritical to me
Not to mention what happens when the Celestials come back the Mutants aren't there I think they'd effortlessly destroy the world after effortlessly defeating every superhero and every single god in every single pantheon
Balance it with the countless more lives the Phoenix has saved, it is a fundamental force of the universe, life incarnate, sometimes you need a forest fire so new life, future generations (which is all that really matters) to thrive, sometimes nature must be ruthless and brutal
Rachel Summers... the last human host of the Phoenix Force, who wielded the power for years as a hero and never once went as out of control as The Avengers have talked about. You'd think someone, like say Wolverine, who is an Avenger and knew both Rachel and Jean Grey, would mention this. Nope. You'd think the X-Men — many of whom, like Logan, were teammates with both Phoenixes — would mention this or the fact that Jean didn't really go crazy until her mind was mucked with by Mastermind? Again, nope. Rachel herself? Again. No
Mutatis mutandis roughly having changed the things that needed to be changed
4/4/2021 c17 Guest
Shuma-Gorath, for instance, has relied on numerous gods and demons to do its bidding and has a massive power difference to back it up. Mephisto and Sataanish, demons who in their own realms are nigh-omnipotent, are said to be like "mice in a great temple" compared to even one of Shuma-Gorath's weaker forms. It is the ruler of literally hundreds of universes and worshipped in thousands more, so the fact that it is a God of Evil makes its power particularly worrying.
It got worse when it's revealed in The Thanos Imperative that Shuma-Gorath is merely one member of an entire pantheon of these things called the Many-Angled Ones
Mephisto, Satannish and a few others are "brothers" in the sense that they were born from the same "mass of evil energy", possibly the one left after the destruction of the Elder Gods. Also, Satan has NEVER officially appeared in Marvel Comics; it's always been some other demon impersonating him. This is a retcon, probably for politically correct reasons, as Satan was a regular character in the "Son of Satan" (now known as Hellstorm) series in the 1970s. That "Satan" was later revealed to be Marduk Kurios, possibly a corrupted version of the Babylonian god (but there's someone else claiming to be that deity, too.) He showed up again when Wolverine went to hell. The "Satan" who created Ghost Rider was revealed to have been Mephisto.
Mephisto has claimed to be the source of all evil on several occasions. Of course, Mephisto lies. The true nature, if any, is kept intentionally vague.
Well, what with his appearance, being one of the few demons to actually offer humans deals with the Devil and trying to corrupt pure souls, he's probably the closest thing the MU will ever have to Satan.
Marvel did have a "Satan", but that later retconned because of the CCA at the time. Marvel introduced the fallen angel Lucifer into the Marvel universe, but insists he is a different entity than Satan(which isn't invalid
Fallen angels seem to be a different beast than the Mephisto type demon lords altogether.
The first appearance of the "Son of Satan" was in an issue of Ghost Rider. Daimon and Satana Hellstrom's and GR's Satan were the same entity, originally.
It was revealed in a Fear Itself Tie-in, that the Demon Lords have meetings around Satan's empty throne. Mephisto even mentions, that while Demon Lords like to falsely claim to be "Satan", none of them dare do it near Satan's throne, or even sit on it. If they did, they'd be torn apart by all the other claimant hell-lords.
It was noted though by Mephisto that Marduk Kurios really does believe and persistently insist that he is in fact THE real Satan, so for all we know "Satan" may originally have been the official title for the ruler of Hell and not a specific entity, with Marduk the first holder of the title until he was eventually deposed and failed to regain his throne ever since.
It should be remembered after all that during the Chaos War storyline, the Devil Powered by All of Hell's Fire who personally battled Marvel's biggest Big Bad to date, the Chaos King itself (who is the yin to the yang of Eternity himself), in the last stand of the Marvel nether realms, was Marduk Kurios.
There are also many demon lords who don't go after the title of Satan but have no less nefarious goals, such as Lilith, Blackheart, Asteroth, The Beast Of The Hand and Plokta. All but the latter are confirmed to have different origins than the main group though.
Mephisto goes on a date with New Mutants member Magma; apparently confiding in her, he explains that, while he is the embodiment of one of the great forces of the universe, the force that created him also gave him desires and emotions, and occasionally wants to do human things. Magma later confided to Blink that she has subsequently seen Mephisto again, but wishes to keep it secret. After speaking with the Gods at the Infinite Embassy, Mephisto headed to the Devil's Advocacy to speak with the other demons about the Serpent's threat on Earth.
Mephisto briefly appears to assist Deadpool in destroying one of his demon lieutenants, before taking a major part in the Hell On Earth War, where he is defeated and replaced by X-Factor member Strong Guy as ruler of Hell.
Mephisto does more good than UNICEF because if people die young quick and horrible they go straight to heaven because they never had a chance to do bad things
it's not like he's trying to hide or justify the fact that he's dedicated to tricking people out of their souls so he can torture them for eternity. He doesn't particularly come off WORSE after the whole Disir thing
Mephisto may be cute and funny and charming when he wants to be, but he's also basically the worst person in the universe. Unless Amara's more myopic than Harley Quinn, it's hard to see how she could put that out of her mind enough to enjoy the date
He's sometimes been impersonated by lesser demons who imitate his form. Such demons are defeated far more easily than the virtually invincible Mephisto
he'll often allow himself to be beaten if he can use the event to give a greater enemy more grief down the line
While he's certainly very, very powerful and competent and has a not-insignificant amount of major accomplishments to his name, he also likes to act like he's a far bigger deal than he actually is, as beings like Chthon, Set, and Dormammu greatly dwarf him in power (unless he's in the confines of his own realm, but they aren't dependent on that) and potential reach (he generally accomplishes far more than they do, but that's because they're either locked away or act on a far larger scale, which understandably takes more time and effort).
This is partly strategy, however- he makes himself out to be the Ultimate Evil because that works to his advantage, making his enemies and victims fear him more as well as spreading misinformation about who and what he really is (if he even knows himself). Still arguably counts as this since he's rarely quite as successful or menacing as you'd think a genuinely powerful demon like him should be. Then again, he could be deliberately trying to appear weaker than he really is, so maybe he's playing a long-game. Regardless, he's never one to be underestimated.
Case in point, he once tricked the supposedly far greater Dormammu in fighting Galactus, resulting in the former getting eaten for his troubles. By comparison, the one time Galactus in Mephisto fought (again,in Mephisto's own realm), he stalemated Galactus instead. The same story also shows Mephisto-from within his own realm- effortlessly bending Umar, Dormammu's supposedly only slightly less powerful sister, to his will
This is why no one should ever make a deal with him. He absolutely loves overly specific interpretations of deals that screw the other party over as much as possible while still technically being within the terms.
A good example was the time when he pitted Johnny and Zarathos against Asmodeus, saying they would be freed from each other if they managed to outrace him, but if they weren't fast enough to win, they'd have to serve Asmodeus. Ghost Rider wins the race, but Mephisto finds some reason to back out of the deal. Ghost Rider was really bait to get his rival to accept a small fine; Mephisto might consider being blasted into non-existence "small" but it probably wasn't what Asmodeus had in mind.
Had the tables turned and this used against him by Thanos. He offered to help in one of the Mad Titan's quests in exchange for a Cosmic Cube. Once it was over, Thanos gave him a Cube and Mephisto immediately tried to use it to obliterate Thanos. Turns out that Cube's power had already been drained and it was useless. Thanos pointed out he never specified a functional Cosmic Cube and that even devils should be careful when making deals with the Mad Titan. Needless to say, Mephisto was not pleased
Writers can't seem to agree on exactly what he is or where he came from; since he's the Prince of Lies, this has been explained as Mephisto either not knowing himself and/or making stuff up to better confuse people. On one occasion Dormammu thought he was playing Mephisto like a fiddle, only for the exact opposite to be true, with Mephisto even calling Dormammu out on having the nerve to try and deceive him when he was the one who invented deception and manipulation
He knows how people think
Yeah, he always fulfills his part of a deal because he's bound by oath. That being said, he will always fulfill it to the letter and nothing more while going out of his way to screw over the other party as much as he can within the confines of the oath, and if the terms of a deal don't really allow him to do that much to mess someone or he really feels like being a dick, he'll just rob them of everything that they gained from the deal somewhere down the line. He has no reason for doing any of this, either; "just felt like being an asshole" is about as deep as his rationale gets. Needless to say, it tends to come back to bite him in the ass, but since he's virtually impossible to destroy and has a seemingly neverending supply of new entrants for pacts, "don't $#!t where you eat" has never really crossed his mind
Shuma-Gorath, for instance, has relied on numerous gods and demons to do its bidding and has a massive power difference to back it up. Mephisto and Sataanish, demons who in their own realms are nigh-omnipotent, are said to be like "mice in a great temple" compared to even one of Shuma-Gorath's weaker forms. It is the ruler of literally hundreds of universes and worshipped in thousands more, so the fact that it is a God of Evil makes its power particularly worrying.
It got worse when it's revealed in The Thanos Imperative that Shuma-Gorath is merely one member of an entire pantheon of these things called the Many-Angled Ones
Mephisto, Satannish and a few others are "brothers" in the sense that they were born from the same "mass of evil energy", possibly the one left after the destruction of the Elder Gods. Also, Satan has NEVER officially appeared in Marvel Comics; it's always been some other demon impersonating him. This is a retcon, probably for politically correct reasons, as Satan was a regular character in the "Son of Satan" (now known as Hellstorm) series in the 1970s. That "Satan" was later revealed to be Marduk Kurios, possibly a corrupted version of the Babylonian god (but there's someone else claiming to be that deity, too.) He showed up again when Wolverine went to hell. The "Satan" who created Ghost Rider was revealed to have been Mephisto.
Mephisto has claimed to be the source of all evil on several occasions. Of course, Mephisto lies. The true nature, if any, is kept intentionally vague.
Well, what with his appearance, being one of the few demons to actually offer humans deals with the Devil and trying to corrupt pure souls, he's probably the closest thing the MU will ever have to Satan.
Marvel did have a "Satan", but that later retconned because of the CCA at the time. Marvel introduced the fallen angel Lucifer into the Marvel universe, but insists he is a different entity than Satan(which isn't invalid
Fallen angels seem to be a different beast than the Mephisto type demon lords altogether.
The first appearance of the "Son of Satan" was in an issue of Ghost Rider. Daimon and Satana Hellstrom's and GR's Satan were the same entity, originally.
It was revealed in a Fear Itself Tie-in, that the Demon Lords have meetings around Satan's empty throne. Mephisto even mentions, that while Demon Lords like to falsely claim to be "Satan", none of them dare do it near Satan's throne, or even sit on it. If they did, they'd be torn apart by all the other claimant hell-lords.
It was noted though by Mephisto that Marduk Kurios really does believe and persistently insist that he is in fact THE real Satan, so for all we know "Satan" may originally have been the official title for the ruler of Hell and not a specific entity, with Marduk the first holder of the title until he was eventually deposed and failed to regain his throne ever since.
It should be remembered after all that during the Chaos War storyline, the Devil Powered by All of Hell's Fire who personally battled Marvel's biggest Big Bad to date, the Chaos King itself (who is the yin to the yang of Eternity himself), in the last stand of the Marvel nether realms, was Marduk Kurios.
There are also many demon lords who don't go after the title of Satan but have no less nefarious goals, such as Lilith, Blackheart, Asteroth, The Beast Of The Hand and Plokta. All but the latter are confirmed to have different origins than the main group though.
Mephisto goes on a date with New Mutants member Magma; apparently confiding in her, he explains that, while he is the embodiment of one of the great forces of the universe, the force that created him also gave him desires and emotions, and occasionally wants to do human things. Magma later confided to Blink that she has subsequently seen Mephisto again, but wishes to keep it secret. After speaking with the Gods at the Infinite Embassy, Mephisto headed to the Devil's Advocacy to speak with the other demons about the Serpent's threat on Earth.
Mephisto briefly appears to assist Deadpool in destroying one of his demon lieutenants, before taking a major part in the Hell On Earth War, where he is defeated and replaced by X-Factor member Strong Guy as ruler of Hell.
Mephisto does more good than UNICEF because if people die young quick and horrible they go straight to heaven because they never had a chance to do bad things
it's not like he's trying to hide or justify the fact that he's dedicated to tricking people out of their souls so he can torture them for eternity. He doesn't particularly come off WORSE after the whole Disir thing
Mephisto may be cute and funny and charming when he wants to be, but he's also basically the worst person in the universe. Unless Amara's more myopic than Harley Quinn, it's hard to see how she could put that out of her mind enough to enjoy the date
He's sometimes been impersonated by lesser demons who imitate his form. Such demons are defeated far more easily than the virtually invincible Mephisto
he'll often allow himself to be beaten if he can use the event to give a greater enemy more grief down the line
While he's certainly very, very powerful and competent and has a not-insignificant amount of major accomplishments to his name, he also likes to act like he's a far bigger deal than he actually is, as beings like Chthon, Set, and Dormammu greatly dwarf him in power (unless he's in the confines of his own realm, but they aren't dependent on that) and potential reach (he generally accomplishes far more than they do, but that's because they're either locked away or act on a far larger scale, which understandably takes more time and effort).
This is partly strategy, however- he makes himself out to be the Ultimate Evil because that works to his advantage, making his enemies and victims fear him more as well as spreading misinformation about who and what he really is (if he even knows himself). Still arguably counts as this since he's rarely quite as successful or menacing as you'd think a genuinely powerful demon like him should be. Then again, he could be deliberately trying to appear weaker than he really is, so maybe he's playing a long-game. Regardless, he's never one to be underestimated.
Case in point, he once tricked the supposedly far greater Dormammu in fighting Galactus, resulting in the former getting eaten for his troubles. By comparison, the one time Galactus in Mephisto fought (again,in Mephisto's own realm), he stalemated Galactus instead. The same story also shows Mephisto-from within his own realm- effortlessly bending Umar, Dormammu's supposedly only slightly less powerful sister, to his will
This is why no one should ever make a deal with him. He absolutely loves overly specific interpretations of deals that screw the other party over as much as possible while still technically being within the terms.
A good example was the time when he pitted Johnny and Zarathos against Asmodeus, saying they would be freed from each other if they managed to outrace him, but if they weren't fast enough to win, they'd have to serve Asmodeus. Ghost Rider wins the race, but Mephisto finds some reason to back out of the deal. Ghost Rider was really bait to get his rival to accept a small fine; Mephisto might consider being blasted into non-existence "small" but it probably wasn't what Asmodeus had in mind.
Had the tables turned and this used against him by Thanos. He offered to help in one of the Mad Titan's quests in exchange for a Cosmic Cube. Once it was over, Thanos gave him a Cube and Mephisto immediately tried to use it to obliterate Thanos. Turns out that Cube's power had already been drained and it was useless. Thanos pointed out he never specified a functional Cosmic Cube and that even devils should be careful when making deals with the Mad Titan. Needless to say, Mephisto was not pleased
Writers can't seem to agree on exactly what he is or where he came from; since he's the Prince of Lies, this has been explained as Mephisto either not knowing himself and/or making stuff up to better confuse people. On one occasion Dormammu thought he was playing Mephisto like a fiddle, only for the exact opposite to be true, with Mephisto even calling Dormammu out on having the nerve to try and deceive him when he was the one who invented deception and manipulation
He knows how people think
Yeah, he always fulfills his part of a deal because he's bound by oath. That being said, he will always fulfill it to the letter and nothing more while going out of his way to screw over the other party as much as he can within the confines of the oath, and if the terms of a deal don't really allow him to do that much to mess someone or he really feels like being a dick, he'll just rob them of everything that they gained from the deal somewhere down the line. He has no reason for doing any of this, either; "just felt like being an asshole" is about as deep as his rationale gets. Needless to say, it tends to come back to bite him in the ass, but since he's virtually impossible to destroy and has a seemingly neverending supply of new entrants for pacts, "don't $#!t where you eat" has never really crossed his mind